Interesting article on Tea Party Catholics

[Miss_Felicity]

Uh, sorry to burst your bubble, but most of the people on the dole would very much like to find work. But no work is forthcoming, at least not in blue collar jobs. Have you ever been to a welfare office? I have. Believe me, going on welfare is not easy. Going on food stamps is not easy. This goes double if you lose your house and no-one will take you in. The bureaucrats who work there are the epitome of the functionaries Reagan criticized. Getting a dole application past them - and I’m talking about the so called deserving cases here - felons in most states are ineligible, period - is up there with the labors of Hercules. The response times are so horrible (6 hours to get an approval hearning when that’s not supposed to happen) you have men and women standing in line in the dole queue when they’d rather be looking for work.

As for single mothers, problem is, not all single mothers have a loving family to go back to - that’s why they’re at the welfare office. In some instances, the family is dead or too poor themselves to take them in. In others, well, I know cases right out of the novel, “Push”. Others kicked them out once they found that the young woman was pregnant (usually these are Protestant households). Also, raising a kid makes it difficult in many cases to go to school, so many of them aren’t qualified for more than minimum wage jobs. Believe me, most of these people are not using food stamps or state aid to buy video games (not enough money for that). They’re using it to buy groceries, or to book a limited time in cheap motels because it’s the cheapest alternative to sleeping at the bus stop. Also, cut welfare to single mothers, and I’ll bet we’ll see the abortion rates go up.

All these proposals sound nice to those of us who live with either middle class incomes, supportive family structures, or both. But it’s more complex when you’re talking about poor people. Trust me, I’d love nothing more than to have the Church take care of all this. I bet the Church would be willing to help. But they just don’t at the moment have the resources, or the steady revenue stream that the State does.

One of the best responses I’ve seen on CAF. Push was one of my favorite books. I think it should be required reading. So many people have a fantasy idea of the what and why of poverty, of people who are on assistance. A lot of people are so blind to the heartbreaking stories that happen everyday and have been happening for years and years. There are no bootstraps because there is a whole class of people with no boots!! There is a rush of victim blaming and shaming which is unfortunate and keeps people ignorant to real problems and unable to comment intelligently on solutions.

 

[JB_Dugan]

The Tea Party “movement” is just a Republican Party Platform Redundancy masquerading as some sort of “third way” grassroots protest against the two parties. It’s a Conservative Pretense. It’s been that way since it was co-opted by the Koch Brothers and other bought and paid for opportunistic politicians.

The Tea Party was somewhat encouraging when it was against the Bail Outs /Obamacare in 2008/2009 , then all of a sudden it just became a voice of the more conservative wing of the Republican Party. Even then, it was still a collection of Ron Paul/Austrian school of thought participators, as a movement. (Gold Standard, Fiscal/Social Libertarianism).

So…What’s wrong with all that.

Considering the deteriorating world situation since liberals have been in control…I think the Tea Party movement is the way to go.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

So…What’s wrong with all that.

Considering the deteriorating world situation since liberals have been in control…I think the Tea Party movement is the way to go.

I can’t imagine how you draw that conclusion. Like I’ve said, I’ve reached my limit with “those people”. But I’ve taken a long hard look at their ideals. (The similarities with the Birchers are alarming, right up to calling the president a Communist.) I find them lacking as far as seriously addressing the problems of humans, and the creation.

ATB

 

[Captain_America]

I think there’s a great deal of NEW fear of a largely unaccountable federal government.

The Tea Party points out the classic problems of intrusive/coercive government.

The political challenge of our time is to try to find a happy political balance; while the Current Occupant campaigned on the notion that he would be the Great Compromiser, instead he’s shown himself to be the Great Divisor. … and a good whiner.

If a society gets some social harmony, it can move ahead and begin to reasonably solve social problems.

OUR problem seems to be that lefties push new social change all the time. . . and are not held accountable to making their recent social change work or harmonize. This leads to crashing dissonances.

The Tea Party folks are a ragtag-pick-up of people unhappy with various aspects of political life.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Weird, you start off with talking about large un-accountable government, and the “Classic” problems associated with what you term a intrusive/coercive government. (you do realize we have a democracy I hope)

Then you go on to pine about social harmony. Somehow you are able to reconcile these two extremes? I guess you cover this with your “rag-tag” description of TEA Party enthusiasts.

This latest Congress has been described as the Do-nothing congress because of the obstructive behavior of these TEA Party enthusiasts.

I don’t believe social harmony is possible as long as they are around. Not unlike Jihadists we’ve dealt with.

ATB

 

[_Abyssinia]

Tea Party Catholic (Samuel Gregg - Acton Institute)

youtube.com/watch?v=J7CtIavzamA

Becoming Europe (Samuel Gregg - Acton Institute)

youtube.com/watch?v=isb2n6antOY

 

[Della]

Weird, you start off with talking about large un-accountable government, and the “Classic” problems associated with what you term a intrusive/coercive government. (you do realize we have a democracy I hope)

Then you go on to pine about social harmony. Somehow you are able to reconcile these two extremes? I guess you cover this with your “rag-tag” description of TEA Party enthusiasts.

This latest Congress has been described as the Do-nothing congress because of the obstructive behavior of these TEA Party enthusiasts.

I don’t believe social harmony is possible as long as they are around. Not unlike Jihadists we’ve dealt with.

ATB

Comparing Tea Party members to Jihadists (who murder anyone who gets in their way), is going too far, IMHO.

The Tea Party started when government began imposing things on the people by fiat, especially this administration. If you want to talk extremists, the left wing is much more extreme than the Tea Party. There is little to no fraud to be found in the TP but plenty in the left wing.

The media has given and continues to give the left wing a complete pass on whatever they do, or begrudgingly mention their more nefarious activities when it becomes apparent such activities cannot be hushed-up.

It’s the president’s job to bring all factions together and compromise. This administration has proven again and again that its agenda is all that matters to it, not governing the country.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Comparing Tea Party members to Jihadists (who murder anyone who gets in their way), is going too far, IMHO.

The comparison was made only with respect to their inability to compromise, and that aspect of the comparison, I think, is still valid.

The Tea Party started when government began imposing things on the people by fiat…

That’s what government is supposed to do, only the word that is generally used is a little less loaded: “legislation”.

There is little to no fraud to be found in the TP but plenty in the left wing.

I don’t think the Tea Party is any more immune to fraud. For example, [this news story](10 Montgomery County residents voted) is about Adrian Heath and six other Tea Party activists who were indicted for voter fraud for registering their address as a Marriott hotel with the boundaries of the Woodlands Road Utility District in Montgomery County, Texas, in order to gain control of the board. In some cases the defendants only stayed in the hotel 2 days. Claims about the Tea Party being pure and honest are just wishful thinking.

 

[Della]

The comparison was made only with respect to their inability to compromise, and that aspect of the comparison, I think, is still valid.

Jihadist is just too loaded a word. It’s akin to comparing someone with Hitler and then stating that the comparison was to his ability to keep the trains running on time.

That’s what government is supposed to do, only the word that is generally used is a little less loaded: “legislation”.

There’s a huge difference between legislating and ramming things through by threat and intimidation, which is the forte of this administration. and the left

I don’t think the Tea Party is any more immune to fraud. For example, [this news story](10 Montgomery County residents voted) is about Adrian Heath and six other Tea Party activists who were indicted for voter fraud for registering their address as a Marriott hotel with the boundaries of the Woodlands Road Utility District in Montgomery County, Texas, in order to gain control of the board. In some cases the defendants only stayed in the hotel 2 days. Claims about the Tea Party being pure and honest are just wishful thinking.

The left is rife with fraud and scandal. And, I never claimed everyone in the Tea Party were as blameless as the angels. Indeed, I stated quite clearly that no doubt there is some fraud in the TP, as there is in any party, but that incidents on the left far out-match it.

 

[JB_Dugan]

I can’t imagine how you draw that conclusion. Like I’ve said, I’ve reached my limit with “those people”. But I’ve taken a long hard look at their ideals. (The similarities with the Birchers are alarming, right up to calling the president a Communist.) I find them lacking as far as seriously addressing the problems of humans, and the creation.

ATB

Oh, wow…they called the president a communist…?

(Well, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck…)

Gee, don’t you remember all the terrible names the liberal press called President Bush?

 

[Rohanfan]

I have to be honest, I’ve completely run out of patients with talk radio listeners, and TEA party enthusiasts. One poor fellow at deer camp had to sit quietly every night because he couldn’t stay off of the talking points.

ATB

Thank you Again!

I have been giving out Thank You’s and this was needed

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Jihadist is just too loaded a word. It’s akin to comparing someone with Hitler and then stating that the comparison was to his ability to keep the trains running on time.

–good point–

There’s a huge difference between legislating and ramming things through by threat and intimidation, which is the forte of this administration.

I’m not sure what threats and intimidation you mean.

 

[Della]

–good point–

:tiphat:

I’m not sure what threats and intimidation you mean.

Perhaps not, if you read/listen to the liberal media, who all endorse nearly everything in the current administration, make excuses for their failures, and only report on what is truly egregious when pressed by overwhelming facts too blatant to ignore.

I read/listen to both sides and I can tell you that a lot goes unreported by MSNBC, CBS, the NYTimes and other such venues because, philosophically and politically, they are hand-in-glove with the liberal left.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Perhaps not, if you read/listen to the liberal media, who all endorse nearly everything in the current administration, make excuses for their failures, and only report on what is truly egregious when pressed by overwhelming facts too blatant to ignore.

I read/listen to both sides and I can tell you that a lot goes unreported by MSNBC, CBS, the NYTimes and other such venues because, philosophically and politically, they are hand-in-glove with the liberal left.

So, you are going to pass up this opportunity to enlighten me?

 

[Tony_the_mad]

I haven’t read the book, but there is no surprise that a Catholic case can be made for economic liberty, limited government, and subsidiarity.

A preferential option for the poor does not equate to more centralized government power.

The Catholic Church spent three fourths of a century fighting socialism and communism, with popes issuing a variety of social encyclicals condemning those systems. But a ‘market’ economy with an unfree market in which power is centralized to a few can be just as restrictive as a communist or socialist system in which economic power is centralized. Neither constitutes a free market. So I’m glad to hear someone argue for economic and religious liberty

Seeing that the Catholic Church does not proscribe any form of government I think that a person can make a case for ANY form of government based on Catholic principles.

Our church was not formed with democracy in mind. So Catholics need to decide for themselves what form that a democratic government should take. If they think of government as a necessary evil set apart and above the rest for the limited purpose of providing order using the ‘violence’ of the state they will inevitably be led to the sort of government proposed by the Tea Party and for that matter Barry Goldwater and a good portion of the politicians even in the US during its 200 year history.

But if you take the first three words of the US Constitution seriously, that our government is formed by ‘we the people’ then you are led to a completely different direction. A great republican president was one of the first to recognize that our government is ‘of the people’ and ‘by the people’ and therefore must also be ‘for the people’. That same president also said about our responsibility as a democracy: ‘With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation’s wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.’

Catholics have no obligation, though to take those words seriously or to think that they apply to our situation. If they think they are an oppressed minority being tyrannized by a democratic majority then they are more than free to take the first option I presented.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Comparing Tea Party members to Jihadists (who murder anyone who gets in their way), is going too far, IMHO. Slightly too far perhaps. But my point was that they have to be gotten rid of.

The Tea Party started when government began imposing things on the people by fiat, especially this administration. If you want to talk extremists, the left wing is much more extreme than the Tea Party. There is little to no fraud to be found in the TP but plenty in the left wing. Well that’s certainly a bold claim. The government has the most oversight of any in history.

The media has given and continues to give the left wing a complete pass on whatever they do, or begrudgingly mention their more nefarious activities when it becomes apparent such activities cannot be hushed-up.I think the media has been hard on this administration justifiably so.

It’s the president’s job to bring all factions together and compromise. This administration has proven again and again that its agenda is all that matters to it, not governing the country. He’s done a poor job.

ATB

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Jihadist is just too loaded a word. It’s akin to comparing someone with Hitler and then stating that the comparison was to his ability to keep the trains running on time. That was Mussolini who had the trains running on time. He also put a halt to most criminal activity.

There’s a huge difference between legislating and ramming things through by threat and intimidation, which is the forte of this administration. and the left Both sides need to bend a little for the good of the country.

The left is rife with fraud and scandal. Here again, you’ve wandered into the dark territory of talking points. You are making broad claims that…

And, I never claimed everyone in the Tea Party were as blameless as the angels. Indeed, I stated quite clearly that no doubt there is some fraud in the TP, as there is in any party, but that incidents on the left far out-match it.

 

[Corki]

I haven’t read the book, but there is no surprise that a Catholic case can be made for economic liberty, limited government, and subsidiarity.

A preferential option for the poor does not equate to more centralized government power.

The Catholic Church spent three fourths of a century fighting socialism and communism, with popes issuing a variety of social encyclicals condemning those systems. But a ‘market’ economy with an unfree market in which power is centralized to a few can be just as restrictive as a communist or socialist system in which economic power is centralized. Neither constitutes a free market. So I’m glad to hear someone argue for economic and religious liberty

I haven’t read it yet either. I did notice in one of the reviews that the title “Tea Party Catholic” is not meant to refer only to the modern Tea Party but to Charles Carroll, the only Catholic signer of the Declaration of Independence. Since I love historical biographies, I am adding this book to my wish list.

 

[Della]

ATB

I agree in large part with your responses to my posts. Except your declaration that the Tea Party must be gotten rid of. I don’t think any party needs to be gotten rid of, not even the ones I disagree with the most. As you know, of course, the USA is a democracy not a dictatorship. We need to hear all voices and all sides of every issue to make good decisions about how the country ought to be governed. As it is now, a good many voices are squashed so that only the prevailing opinion will be heard. This is wrong. I won’t let anyone tell me that if I differ with the administration I need to sit down and shut up. All sides, left and right, should have equal voice so that people can make informed decisions when they vote for candidates and positions, IMHO. I know that’s the ideal and probably won’t happen, but I cannot agree that we must shut up certain groups merely because we don’t like what they have to say. How we can truly compromise if we are only allowed to hear one side of an issue?

 

[Della]

So, you are going to pass up this opportunity to enlighten me?

Definitely. You are perfectly capable of enlightening yourself.