Interesting Brigham Young Quotes

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And this is where the human imagination plays its role. I wouldn’t say that it was hatred but it was a warning. But the point still remains: were they correct? It is easy to paste and post quotations without context, but was what they said true?

Now that would be an interesting dialogue. 🙂
Hate is never right
 
You can read all about it in the history books. Use your imagination by seeing yourself there at that time as you read the history and ask yourself what would you have done? Kill protestants because they were protestants because the king or queen said so for the good of the faith?

Imagination is wonderful. Also tom, when I read your posts, I can see a similiarity with the mormon apostates during the time of Joseph Smith. Can you see yourself persecuting mormons and calling for their destruction? Again, the imagination is wonderful as we attempt to see are own would be role in the past happening.
Ah…now your position becomes a lot clearer. You do not use facts, you use imagination.

Thank you so much. That news helps me understand your posts a little better
 
I’m unclear about WhyMe’s posts. Of course part of that confusion is that I have WhyMe on my ignore list. 🙂

But another part of the confusion, since I see so much of WhyMe’s post via quotes from others is that it would appear that persons believe that WhyMe is Mormon, when, at least in the past, WhyMe has (at least pretended) to be Catholic, and at least pretended to attend Mass, and has even claimed to be a Lector.

I’m wondering if something has changed? Or if all that other business was a fairy tale? And how can anyone know for sure?

History and long memories can be a troublesome thing at times. 😉

“Back in the day” I actually worried about WhyMe because I could not understand how he/she reconciled Catholic faith with Mormon faith. No one can be of both faiths without betraying BOTH faiths. Now it seems that WhyMe is entirely Mormon. Can it be that WhyMe has converted to Mormonism and yet is still pretending something else? It is hard to know what is going on when someone may be posing as someone they are not. What are we to think about such a person?
 
Ah…now your position becomes a lot clearer. You do not use facts, you use imagination.

Thank you so much. That news helps me understand your posts a little better
The use of the imagination is one ingredient for critical thinking and the questioning process. On this forum, when I see some of the posts I can see these people leading the mobs to attack the mormons at the time of Joseph Smith. When one reads the newspapers at the time of Joseph Smith there are similiarities in sentiment as here. Human nature doesn’t change.
 
The use of the imagination is one ingredient for critical thinking and the questioning process. On this forum, when I see some of the posts I can see these people leading the mobs to attack the mormons at the time of Joseph Smith. When one reads the newspapers at the time of Joseph Smith there are similiarities in sentiment as here. Human nature doesn’t change.
wow…so proclaiming truth is now like a murderous mob to you? You DO use your imagination. lol
 
wow…so proclaiming truth is now like a murderous mob to you? You DO use your imagination. lol
And here is where the imagination takes place. If we go back in time, to the time when the mobs were burning out mormons, we can see individuals proclaiming ‘truth’ about the mormons. And such ‘truths’ were published in newspapers in language that can be classified as inflammatory and inciteful and designed to arouse emotion. And emotions were aroused to such a degree that the non-members saw the mormon faith as evil.

Now could you center yourself back then, with the other apostates arousing the emotions of non-members to such a degree that people would be aroused to take such actions as the mobs did? The main stirrings of the pot were found with exmormon apostates all in the name of ‘truth’?

Do you see my point?
 
The use of the imagination is one ingredient for critical thinking and the questioning process. On this forum, when I see some of the posts I can see these people leading the mobs to attack the mormons at the time of Joseph Smith. When one reads the newspapers at the time of Joseph Smith there are similiarities in sentiment as here. Human nature doesn’t change.
No human nature doesn’t change. The Mormons hands are also not free of innocent blood. Catholics have had a greater opportunity to commit atrocities and have been the victims of atrocities. I seriously doubt anyone is going to attempt to kill any Mormon leaders, though.

Yet, I think I understand your point. When rhetoric and emotion take the forefront to charitable discussion, it is not easy to remain objective.
 
Whether or not, christ promised that the church would remain on earth is a matter of interpretation of which many protestant sects would disagree with you. I think that when one looks at christian history and see the political intrigues and how these political intrigues led to corruption, war and death, one can speculate that god was not too pleased. And so, the question is: did the protestant and catholic church lead with the hearts of men and not with the heart of god? And if the christian church lead with the hearts of men, it would be in apostacy.

Joseph Smith claimed, I believe, that churches were lead by some truth but not the complete truth. And if he was correct, there would be an apostacy.
The fact that some people disagree with me says nothing whatever about whether what I say is true, or even whether what I say is provable. What matter is upon what grounds someone else disagrees, and whether those those ground have a legitimate basis in revelation, or whether they come from another source, such as the heard heart of a person who is closed to hearing God’s Word.

You assert it is a matter of interpretation. If that is the case, then you must mean that the parable I have given above can be interpreted another way than what I have proposed. What way is that? Do you have an interpretation that you can support from the text? If you do not, then on what basis can you claim that my interpretation is arbitrary, since it is the only one that has even been proposed?
 
And here is where the imagination takes place. If we go back in time, to the time when the mobs were burning out mormons, we can see individuals proclaiming ‘truth’ about the mormons.

how abpout thjose same times when Mormons burned out “gentiles?”

And such ‘truths’ were published in newspapers in language that can be classified as inflammatory and inciteful and designed to arouse emotion. And emotions were aroused to such a degree that the non-members saw the mormon faith as evil.

Now could you center yourself back then, with the other apostates arousing the emotions of non-members to such a degree that people would be aroused to take such actions as the mobs did? The main stirrings of the pot were found with exmormon apostates all in the name of ‘truth’?

Do you see my point?
 
And here is where the imagination takes place. If we go back in time, to the time when the mobs were burning out mormons, we can see individuals proclaiming ‘truth’ about the mormons.

How about when Mormons, at the same time, burning out “gentiles”?

And such ‘truths’ were published in newspapers in language that can be classified as inflammatory and inciteful and designed to arouse emotion. And emotions were aroused to such a degree that the non-members saw the mormon faith as evil.

Well, according to non LDS Sources back then, the LDS swarmed in, took over towns, and proclaimed they would take the land becaquse Jose Smith said it was theirs. You want people to believe that Mormons moved in, kissed all the babies, skipped around singing songs and were hated for no reason. That is not true. The Mormons also had their danites and calls for killing, etc.

Now could you center yourself back then, with the other apostates arousing the emotions of non-members to such a degree that people would be aroused to take such actions as the mobs did? The main stirrings of the pot were found with exmormon apostates all in the name of ‘truth’?

if they threatended me like they did others back then, maybe. But more likely, I would be in their area peacefully, and they would trick me out of safety and salughter me and all my family and friends and kidnap the smallest children

Do you see my point?

Nope. I see you stretching mightily to make a point that does not exist
 
Yeah, That Brigham was one hateful dude. I managed to find some more pretty scandalous quotes from him:

Concerning Jews:
The Jewish people fell from the heights because of their faithlessness and condemned their Redeemer to a shameful death. Their godlessness has assumed such forms that, for the salvation of our own people, it becomes necessary to prevent their disease. Besides usury, through which Jews everywhere have sucked dry the people, they are accomplices of thieves and robbers; and the most damaging aspect of the matter is that they allure the unsuspecting through magical incantations, superstition, and witchcraft to the Synagogue of Satan and boast of being able to predict the future …] We order that, within 90 days, all Jews in our entire earthly realm … must depart these regions.
and
Ungrateful for favours and forgetful of benefits, the Jews return insult for kindness and impious contempt for goodness. They ought to know the yoke of perpetual enslavement because of their guilt. See to it that the perfidious Jews never in the future grow insolent, but that they always suffer publicly the shame of their sin in servile fear.
and concerning slaves:
It is certainly a matter of faith that this sort of slavery in which a man serves his master as his slave, is altogether lawful. This is proved from Holy Scripture. It is also proved from reason for it is not unreasonable that just as things which are captured in a just war pass into the power and ownership of the victors, so persons captured in war pass into the ownership of the captors. All theologians are unanimous on this.
and concerning Native Americans:
We are inspired to publish abroad that the Indians of the West and the South, and other people of whom We have recent knowledge should be treated as dumb brutes created for our service, in as far as they are incapable of receiving the Faith. We consider, however, that the Indians are truly men and should by no means be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, so long as they not be outside the faith of Jesus Christ.
Yeah, that Brigham was one awful man…

… oops! I’m sorry, It seems I’ve purposefully misattributed the aforementioned quotes to Brigham Young while they are actually the brain children of Pope St. Pius V, Pope Gregory IX, and Pope Paul III, respectively!

What’s that old saw about glass houses and throwing stones? 😊
 
… oops! I’m sorry, It seems I’ve purposefully misattributed the aforementioned quotes to Brigham Young while they are actually the brain children of Pope St. Pius V, Pope Gregory IX, and Pope Paul III, respectively!

What’s that old saw about glass houses and throwing stones? 😊
As we have shown on a few other recent threads, direct comparison between Mormon prophets and popes is easily misleading, since the claim to being a prophet carries a higher degree of infallibility than papal claims do. Having said that, you make a good point here.

Nota bene: The bit on slavery that you quote is often taken out of context. When it is says “this form of slavery” it refers not to the racial slavery familiar to us, but to another circumstance called “just title servitude.” What it really means is what we would refer to as indenture, as when, in earlier America, immigrants would pay their way by signing on to work for an employer for a set amount of years. Think of Jacob and Laban and you understand the sense of “slavery” the pope has in mind. This is a very important distinction to remember when reading about Biblical slavery, because the word “slave” is not univocal; people often misunderstand it by importing modern assumptions about what “slavery” designates.
 
As we have shown on a few other recent threads, direct comparison between Mormon prophets and popes is easily misleading, since the claim to being a prophet carries a higher degree of infallibility than papal claims do.
Possibly, and possibly not. Personally I take a much more nuanced view of it all. I guess it depends on the lengths to which one is willing to ascribe that supposed infallibility, and having been a Mormon for the first 23 years of my life and now being a (howbeit infantile) Catholic, I think I have a pretty decent grasp on the positions of the respective organizations concerning their figurehead as well as the oft oversimplified external perception thereof.

It seems to me that there are far too many Mormons out there who think that with Papal Infallibility comes the incapacity to sin or pronounce any error in any of life’s paths. Similarly it has been my experience that far too many Catholics believe that Mormons revere their prophets in the capacity of prophets 24/7. Both of these are wrong. As Catholics we know infallibility extends to only the sphere of faith and morals, and only applies when His Holiness is explicitly attempting to do so! Similarly, Latter-day Saints know that not everything that is uttered from the lips of the General Authorities is etched in stone gospel-worthy material (otherwise there’d be no use for the Church sponsored magazines or conference talks… everything spoken of would immediately be appended to the Doctrine and Covenants and made part of the Standard Works).

Now I do think there’s a conversation to be had concerning the level of (one might say blind) devotion a Mormon pays to the words of his prophet versus the comparable level a Catholic pays to the words of his pope, though such a conversation would be seriously marred by gross subjectivity and thus would be doomed to a fate of childish bickering. Nonetheless, I do think the line between the actual prophetic words of the LDS GAs and their “mere mortal opinions” is much more blurred in Mormonism than they are in Catholicism (with respect to the words of a Pope or council of bishops). Still to this day I admit I don’t know how Mormons distinguish between a prophet’s “mere opinion” and his prophetic utterances, and to be certain I highly doubt any Mormon today really knows either. It seems to me all an active Mormon can do is “follow the prophet” in every and all aspects and hope later generations are easy in judging his character in hindsight. At least in Catholicism we have what appears to many to be a form of extreme legalism, but in reality is a secure protocol, if you will, by which earnest members of the Church (through a properly informed conscience, and possibly a little bit of theology up their sleeves) may judge and determine the level of authority magesterial documents possess.

Having said that, you make a good point here.
Nota bene: The bit on slavery that you quote is often taken out of context. When it is says “this form of slavery” it refers not to the racial slavery familiar to us, but to another circumstance called “just title servitude.” What it really means is what we would refer to as indenture, as when, in earlier America, immigrants would pay their way by signing on to work for an employer for a set amount of years. Think of Jacob and Laban and you understand the sense of “slavery” the pope has in mind. This is a very important distinction to remember when reading about Biblical slavery, because the word “slave” is not univocal; people often misunderstand it by importing modern assumptions about what “slavery” designates.
Thank you, but I was well aware of the type of slavery spoken of. No matter the case, all forms of slavery are considered reprehensible to our 21st century sensibilities and even this biblically sanctioned form has since been condemned by the Church during the 2nd Vatican Council (one of many contentions held by many Sedevecantists and other extreme Traditionalists). My point was that even when it comes to some of our own (howbeit NON-infallible) papal pronouncements of faith and morals, the contemporary church has changed course and actually distanced itself from those previous teachings.

Edited to add:

I feel compelled to mention that my own personal opinion of Brigham Young is that he was a power hungry, evil racist, and I cannot think of any Pope in history who has “taught” so much alleged “error” and has needed “future correcting” as he, so in this fashion I agree with you that the comparison of him to papal errors doesn’t work well tit for tat. Hell, I cannot even think of any other LDS GA who could fit the bill for that matter. He certainly is a strange outlier in the list of LDS First Presidents.
 
The sad thing is, Mormons will try to ignore these quotes, deny these quotes, and whitewash these quotes, but there is no real way to explain them
 
Yet, I think I understand your point. When rhetoric and emotion take the forefront to charitable discussion, it is not easy to remain objective.
No, it isn’t easy to remain objective. In mormon history from its conception, it has been like this: rhetoric stirring people’s hearts against the mormons. When the mormons arrived in Utah, they settled there to escape the persecution of the mobs that were burning their homes and killings members of their families. But when it was reported that certain groups in california were calling for the extermination of the mormons, fear began to set in again. And this fear would be only natural. The rhetoric in the california newspapers at that time was quite harsh. But it wasn’t only toward the mormons, also toward the indians. And catholics were not immune in getting criticism either. The WASP culture was not that tolerant of difference.

And we can see the same with the nazi papers of the 1920’s before they came to power. The emotional rhetoric began to sway the german population against the jews. And charity became a scarce word.
 
The sad thing is, Mormons will try to ignore these quotes, deny these quotes, and whitewash these quotes, but there is no real way to explain them
Tom, the quotations were from popes and not Brigham Young. Read the bottom of the post. 😊
 
No, it isn’t easy to remain objective. In mormon history from its conception, it has been like this: rhetoric stirring people’s hearts against the mormons.

Not entirely true. Mormons would literally swarm to places, call the place their own, and get people to dislike them. Most communities started off likeing the Mormons, but after LDS conduct, or for fear of their property, etc, turned against them.

When the mormons arrived in Utah, they settled there to escape the persecution of the mobs that were burning their homes and killings members of their families.

The Mormons had an army. After their leader broke the law and was later murdered in a gunfight at the jail, Mormons were afraid. Again, read some of the LDS rhetoric back then asnd see who was more hateful. It was a two-sided affair, despite the persistant need for Mormons to be victims

But when it was reported that certain groups in california were calling for the extermination of the mormons, fear began to set in again. And this fear would be only natural. The rhetoric in the california newspapers at that time was quite harsh. But it wasn’t only toward the mormons, also toward the indians. And catholics were not immune in getting criticism either. The WASP culture was not that tolerant of difference.

You should read the rhetoric coming from Salt Lake back then
 
Yes, some popes said some ughly things. But I don’t hold it against them. Human beings are human beings. And at the end of the day, we need to live with imperfections, hoping for the best. 🙂
I love it when you compare Popes to “prophets”. I t valideates my comments that the LDS folks were really not prophets at all.

And again, I love your need to deflect and use comments from several hundred years ago in a very different era, to comments made less than 150 eyars ago in this country. It also validates my points.
 
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