Interesting comment on the EF

[Brendan]

Our parish has a Saturday Vigil EF, and I took the kids to it.

Our pastor was out of town, so one of the recently ordained priests from the Archdiocese came it to say Mass ( yes, our seminarians are given the chance to learn the EF

I wanted to say hi to him and thank him for coming to our parish to cover for our pastor.

3 men with very thick Iraqi accents were talking to him.

They are Chaldeans and were asking him about the Mass. The local Chaldean parish does not offer Vigil Masses, so they came here today.

They had heard that Roman liturgies were very irreverent, so they were asking Father if this was the way things were done at every Roman parish, because the Mass was so beautiful and they saw nothing irreverent.

He explained that this was the older form of the Mass and the newer form was different.

The comment from the Chaldeans was that we should just use the old form

He did invite them back for the OF Mass and explained that, at this parish, it was very similar, and they said they would try someday.

( in our parish, our OF Mass uses Latin heavily, uses only altar boys, Communion is recieved at the Communion Rail, and we don’t use EMHC’s)

 

[Brian777]

that actually is a good story…good to hear that seminarians are being trained in both forms.

 

[Tradycja]

that actually is a good story…good to hear that seminarians are being trained in both forms.

It’s great for sure, but what would happen to them if they preached “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus”?

 

[The_Prodigal]

Our parish has a Saturday Vigil EF, and I took the kids to it.

Were these anticipation Masses allowed before VII?

 

[Brian777]

It’s great for sure, but what would happen to them if they preached “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus”?

they would begin to fall out of favor for sure, but if they persisted in Christ and proclaimed the Truth in a compassionate way, more people than who left their Masses will begin to come to them.

 

[Freshman88]

Ive always found quite revealing that our Apostolic brethren in the East always raise an eyebrow to the Novus Ordo and especially its abuses.

 

[Freshman88]

It’s great for sure, but what would happen to them if they preached “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus”?

Then they would be preaching an important article of our faith…

Im confused as to what your point was.

 

[JustinMartyr100]

Were these anticipation Masses allowed before VII?

I believe anticipation Masses were first permitted in the 1983 Code of Canon Law. This means there were not allowed even for quite some time AFTER Vatican II.

 

[Timothysis]

They had heard that Roman liturgies were very irreverent, so they were asking Father if this was the way things were done at every Roman parish, because the Mass was so beautiful and they saw nothing irreverent.

He explained that this was the older form of the Mass and the newer form was different.

How does the form have anything to do with reverence? Certainly an irreverent priest can celebrate an irreverent EF just as much as a reverent priest can celebrate a reverent OF (would you say that Pope Benedict is irreverent because he celebrates the OF?).

Really, this constant, angry criticism of the OF is something that a “good” Catholic would not do. I really have to ask how anyone can be so critical of the Church when they claim to be such a faithful Catholic.

 

[Cluny]

**They are Chaldeans and were asking him about the Mass. The local Chaldean parish does not offer Vigil Masses, so they came here today.

They had heard that Roman liturgies were very irreverent, so they were asking Father if this was the way things were done at every Roman parish, because the Mass was so beautiful and they saw nothing irreverent.

He explained that this was the older form of the Mass and the newer form was different.

The comment from the Chaldeans was that we should just use the old form **

A few years ago I visited the local Chaldean Parish. It was entirely recited. I came away with the impression that I had attended the Eastern equivalent of a poor Novus Ordo.

In fairness, I would like to visit again and see the FULL rite, with singing and incense.

There were prayers that just SCREAMED for the use of both.

 

[The_Prodigal]

I believe anticipation Masses were first permitted in the 1983 Code of Canon Law. This means there were not allowed even for quite some time AFTER Vatican II.

This makes me wonder whether there is any scope at all in the rubrics in effect in 1962 for celebrating the following Sunday’s Mass on the previous Saturday evening.

 

[Brendan]

I believe anticipation Masses were first permitted in the 1983 Code of Canon Law. This means there were not allowed even for quite some time AFTER Vatican II.

That’s not quite true, Vigil Masses for Easter were permitted to happen on Saturday Evening. IIRC, there were also Vigil Masses for Pentecost and Embertide.

So there is a precident.

 

[Brendan]

How does the form have anything to do with reverence? Certainly an irreverent priest can celebrate an irreverent EF just as much as a reverent priest can celebrate a reverent OF (would you say that Pope Benedict is irreverent because he celebrates the OF?).

Really, this constant, angry criticism of the OF is something that a “good” Catholic would not do. I really have to ask how anyone can be so critical of the Church when they claim to be such a faithful Catholic.

One thing to keep in mind is that the Eastern Churches generally do not allow the laity to touch the Blessed Sacrament.

Communion in the hand, or EMHC’s, to most Eastern Catholics, is an irreverent practice.

Such things are permitted in the Ordinary Form, but not in the Extraordinary Form.

 

[malphono]

A few years ago I visited the local Chaldean Parish. It was entirely recited. I came away with the impression that I had attended the Eastern equivalent of a poor Novus Ordo.

In fairness, I would like to visit again and see the FULL rite, with singing and incense.

There were prayers that just SCREAMED for the use of both.

Yes, and unfortunately similar things regularly occur in some Maronite churches in the US (and elsewhere, for that matter). Oh, they might use incense, and even sing a note or two, but that “Novus Ordo feeling” is still there.

Anyway, for the Chaldeans in particular, as I understand it, the relatively new Western Eparchy (Eparchy of St Peter, in San Diego) would be your best bet to experience the real thing.

 

[The_Prodigal]

That’s not quite true, Vigil Masses for Easter were permitted to happen on Saturday Evening. IIRC, there were also Vigil Masses for Pentecost and Embertide.

So there is a precident.

True Vigil Masses are and were different Masses than the festal Mass celebrated the next day. (For example, the Vigil of the Nativity differs from all three Nativity Masses).

Your parish’s regularly scheduled EF Mass is a Sunday Mass celebrated on Saturday in “anticipation,” I presume. AFAIK that is not a traditional practice.

 

[malphono]

This makes me wonder whether there is any scope at all in the rubrics in effect in 1962 for celebrating the following Sunday’s Mass on the previous Saturday evening.

It would seem to be more a matter of discipline than one of rubrics. If the competent local Ordinary permits “anticipated” Masses, I really see no problem if it happens to be the EF.

 

[The_Prodigal]

"It would seem to be more a matter of discipline than one of rubrics. If the competent local Ordinary permits “anticipated” Masses, I really see no problem if it happens to be the EF."

This logic allows for a mixing of the EF and OF norms.

Communion in the hand and female altar servers are also allowed in many dioceses. Whether they belong in the EF seems doubtful to many.

 

[malphono]

"It would seem to be more a matter of discipline than one of rubrics. If the competent local Ordinary permits “anticipated” Masses, I really see no problem if it happens to be the EF."

This logic allows for a mixing of the EF and OF norms.

Communion in the hand and female altar servers are also allowed in many dioceses. Whether they belong in the EF seems doubtful to many.

No. The latter are matters of rubrics. If I encountered either at the EF, I’d be out the door in a minute. I don’t assist at the EF to see liturgical abuses.

And no, I am not a supporter of “anticipated Masses.” I have never liked the practice and have only attended same when I’ve had no choice. That said, though, there could be a variety of reasons why the EF might be done that way. Could be the officiating priest’s schedule. Could be the parish schedule. Could be that the paid employees (music director or whatever) are invoking a clause in their contract that says they have to paid for all regular parishes services so the pastor added an extraordinary one to avoid paying for no reason. Could be other reasons.

I’m not saying “anticipated” is ideal, but if it’s a choice between the EF “anticipated” and the OF on Sunday, you’ll find me at the EF.

 

[The_Prodigal]

No. The latter are matters of rubrics. If I encountered either at the EF, I’d be out the door in a minute. I don’t assist at the EF to see liturgical abuses.

And no, I am not a supporter of “anticipated Masses.” I have never liked the practice and have only attended same when I’ve had no choice. That said, though, there could be a variety of reasons why the EF might be done that way. Could be the officiating priest’s schedule. Could be the parish schedule. Could be that the paid employees (music director or whatever) are invoking a clause in their contract that says they have to paid for all regular parishes services so the pastor added an extraordinary one to avoid paying for no reason. Could be other reasons.

I’m not saying “anticipated” is ideal, but if it’s a choice between the EF “anticipated” and the OF on Sunday, you’ll find me at the EF.

Communion in the hand and female altar servers are by indult.

I suspect that anticipated Masses are also by indult, though I can’t locate that document; it was an Instruction of the Congregation of the Clergy in 1970.

FWIW, FSSP chapels do not schedule anticipated Masses, see the list here.

 

[malphono]

Communion in the hand and female altar servers are by indult.

I suspect that anticipated Masses are also by indult, though I can’t locate that document; it was an Instruction of the Congregation of the Clergy in 1970.

FWIW, FSSP chapels do not schedule anticipated Masses, see the list here.

Yes I know all about those two indults. They do not extend to the EF, so they do not concern me one bit.

My position on so-called “anticipated Masses” is pretty clear. I prefer that it NOT be anticipated. I’m not a lawyer, and really don’t care where the practice comes from, because in the end it really doesn’t matter. I was merely trying to say there are possible reasons why the EF might have to be scheduled that way.