Interesting conversation about in-vitro

[Iheartcoffee]

I work in the medical field and I had an interesting conversation with the father of some patients today. He told me his kids were conceived through in-vitro and beamed when he said, “Their very first baby pictures were at 16 cells!” I mentioned that I find it amazing how from the moment of conception everything has been determined such as eye color, hair color, etc. At that 16 cell stage all of that was already determined. (Aside from any epigenetic factors of course but this was outside the realm of what is easy to chat about with a patient).

It struck me as very beautiful that he referred to the picture of them in a dish as “their very first baby pictures”. He is clearly a guy that believes life begins at conception. He laughed and said that he plans on showing those pictures to his kids one day to see if they can tell who is who. (He has twins).

I think that was a guy that truly sees the beauty of life and believes that life begins at conception. However, I think a lot of people see this and do not realize that in order to bring even just one child into the world it means that there were several other siblings conceived that were probably discarded or frozen once a successful pregnancy was detected.

As pro-lifers I think we do a poor job of reaching out to people on these kinds of topics. We are quick to emphasize the death aspects and I think this pushes people away. I think if we first discussed the beauty of that tiny little life, those first “baby pictures” that in-vitro parents can literally see, then it would be much easier to move into a discussion about the fact that not all of those little lives will be allowed to be born in most in-vitro clinics and that is why in-vitro is not the great option most people think it is.

I didn’t get into any deep discussions, it wasn’t an appropriate time or place to do so. But, the conversation did get me thinking and I felt it was worth posting a thread about it. How can we maximize the areas where we are all in agreement to create outreach for those areas that are contested? I think by enhancing conversations about what we can all agree on, we can create a better mindset that will lend itself to people seeing the truth about in-vitro procedures.

People go into in-vitro because they want to create a baby, not lose one (chances are they have already miscarried several times). How can we maximize that message so people will see that in-vitro does the opposite of what they want, while aspiring to reach the desired goal?

 

[faithfully]

Speaking from experience as a twin mother of IVF babies -

It would be a GREAT help if our church actually did a better job and was more vocal. And it would help when you consult a priest, and your family members consult priests and those were in line with the church. Because I tell, you. I don’t trust the lay person over a priest. Period. I do recommend however that you find priests that are properly educating people on this topic, and refer your divulging and inquiring friends.

Be very aware that most Catholics are quite aware that all children are gift from God. And when you’re in a world of sadness, and desperation, successful IVF and Gifts from God are very much one in the same. Not as if you can trick God. It’s really about hurting God and not trusting God to deliver on his terms. That’s where the consequences lie. The beauty I’ve come to see is that God is the only one I know who can be made sad by our failures and continue to give to us and show his love.

The priests that educated me, finally, were all after the fact. I have worked out many things with them, with regards to sin and what not.

I believe the BEST people to councel couples in this very difficult situation are 1) knowledgable priests 2) knowledgeable couples who have NOT gone through IVF themselves. and not as often those that fall into 3) I’m knowledgable, but I know I will come off as a hyprocite to the woman and man in severe pain over the failure of their bodies. 4)The all knowing, not personally exepriencing the pain of infertility man or woman, and worse the same who get PG every time they sneeze. Who come off as bragging about it, and they don’t even realize that. These people are not heard for the truth they speak. But rather as very incensitive uncaring people.

Your message was written with incredible passion. i admire that. Be there for people when they ask and direct them to those truly in the “know”.

Encourage others not to use statements like “giving God a grocery list”… Or “buying a child” Or indicating how “selfish” the parent is. It’s just not received well. It becomes a huge turn off to Christianity. Because in all reality Christians need to deliver their message with love. Not, as a recent example in today’s society, picket the funeral of a loved one and proclaim the sinful life of the dead or the dead’s family is the result of sinning and punishment. It comes off very gross. Something that God is not.

Now, that I’ve already been there done that, I do use certain information I have to those that want to preach about abortion and the blob of cells. Because I too have my first “baby pictures”

A FB friend posted a rather obnoxious photo about what “conservatives think”. I can’t even remember the other two, but they posted a cluster of cells, and labeled that “this is baby”. As if it’s an insane idea.

I actually posted back similar to. ’ Wow, they look just like my kids.’ And then I post pics of my children who are exceptionally cute! ‘Sorry, but those aren’t going to grow into puppies or cows. Those are humans, and humans only!’

The thawing of embryos is a devistation I was not even remotely prepared for. I did say a prayer over them, because it seems no one knows if souls are attached at this stage. I was more horrified by the idea that a soul might be trapped in a tube. That really bothered me. The consequences of our decisions are always there. While part of me is comfortable with the fact that it’s no worse for the embryo that what happens when my body rejected a perfectly healthy baby or embryo. It’s just devistating. Tread lightly.

Education is important. It should happen at the young adult stage when you’re not even remotely thinking of having children. When it’s not an emotional subject.

I wonder, how would I have approached things differently. Or would I have been blinded no matter what by wanting to be a mother. something good. I can not look at my children and even consider an alternative. And well, they are still a gift from God.

I am so blessed regardless of the mistakes I’ve made. God loves me. And I confident that he has extended his forgiveness as promised for the error of my ways. Now that I understand them. (that’s the other thing. many just truly don’t have a full comprehension about this. The sin is less without full knowledge. Not that you should purposely keep someone in the dark)

I imagine as I grow older I will have a better answer to this question. We live in such a messed up world. It’s hard to focus on people who are doing things out of love, when there is so much hatred and destruction out there.

 

[HappyRevert]

Your posting reminded me of a decision I made about 15 years ago. I was away from the church and slowly coming back and we were unable to conceive. I had gone to a fertility clinic and after trying the usual fertility drugs were told that the next phase would be IVF. I read the contract that they gave me and in it were words that stated any embryos we didn’t use were owned by the clinic. They could do with them as they wished. I have to say that was the first time I realized in my bones I was Catholic. I can’t tell you how horrified I was. They would take our babies and could run experiments on them or use them however they wished. The thought still horrifies me. I told them I couldn’t do it because of my religious beliefs and we moved forward with adoption. So many people don’t think about what happens with their embryos. That’s why gentle education is so important. People become so desperate for a child they don’t entirely realize what the cost is.

I do wish we did a better job of educating why we hold the positions that we do.

 

[faithfully]

Your posting reminded me of a decision I made about 15 years ago. I was away from the church and slowly coming back and we were unable to conceive. I had gone to a fertility clinic and after trying the usual fertility drugs were told that the next phase would be IVF. I read the contract that they gave me and in it were words that stated any embryos we didn’t use were owned by the clinic. They could do with them as they wished. I have to say that was the first time I realized in my bones I was Catholic. I can’t tell you how horrified I was. They would take our babies and could run experiments on them or use them however they wished. The thought still horrifies me. I told them I couldn’t do it because of my religious beliefs and we moved forward with adoption. So many people don’t think about what happens with their embryos. That’s why gentle education is so important. People become so desperate for a child they don’t entirely realize what the cost is.

I do wish we did a better job of educating why we hold the positions that we do.

Wow… the clinic I was involved with made no such claim. I would have run like the wind too. I kinda doubt they would offer them for experiments, I think they’d sell them for huge $$ to women who produced no eggs, or did not have a man in the equation. Bigger money.

I wonder how common that was. Def. something else to consider. Congratz on your adoption(s)!

 

[Iheartcoffee]

I guess I find in-vitro users to hold a slightly different place in the pro-life debate. I think many of them are profoundly pro-life because they really want a baby and they are excited and recognize the life that is in that dish. I think 99.9% of in-vitro users have the best intentions in the entire world and for that I want to see pro-life education treat them with the most compassion possible. I think there is a serious risk that the wrong pro-life education could ignore their good intentions while trying to get the point across.

I just hadn’t really thought about this whole realm of pro-life education before that conversation, but it’s pretty obvious to me now that discussions of in-vitro need to be tailored to the listener better. They WANT life and just may not realize that the process has serious potential to do the opposite.

I do appreciate conversations that expand my mind and make me think.

 

[anilorak13ska]

Thank you for the sensitivity with which this topic is being broached. I can’t tell you how hurt and put off I am by accusatory and judgmental blank statements by those who never dealt with the pain of infertility against those considering their options.

I’d like to get your feedback on something related. There is an option to do what’s called a “natural cycle IVF”, where there are zero “extra” embryos, since the woman’s ovaries are not hyperstimulated, and only the regular one egg is fertilized and the one resulting embryo is transferred back. Now, I know that the church’s stance against IVF is only half due to the sadly usual loss of early life in the process, and the other half is due to the separation of the marital act from conception. But from a Pro-Life stance, this second reason would be very hard to convince someone not to do IVF, I think. In all honestly, it’s not a very strongly moving argument in my heart, at least not at this point in time. So, would it be in the scope of reason that any discussion attempting to educate someone considering IVF might include a mention of the “natural cycle IVF” option?

The second question I have is much more personal for me. Without going into the debate about whether or not the church has or hasn’t officially ruled on embryo adoption (and this is still a debate, since the latest documents remain to be interpreted both ways), there is one aspect of this option that has just recently gripped me with concern.

In my research and after much discernment, my husband and I adopted four embryos after matching with their genetic parents. We entered an open adoption arrangement, met each other and our babies’ siblings, and proceeded to transfer two babies at a time, on two separate occasions. Our first set of babies’ homecoming resulted in a chemical loss at 5 weeks. Our second set of babies didn’t make it to implantation. Our first set’s due date is coming up next week, and I wrote a thank you card to the embryologist as an effort to acknowledge that the importance of his work is not mitigated by success or failure, since that remains in God’s hands.

Well, as I was writing this card, I remembered filling out the clinic form and that there was a question on there about the “option” for “selective reduction”. This troubled me. It reminded me of one of the arguments I’ve heard against embryo adoption - namely, that in the process of adopting embryos, one financially supports a clinic where abortions take place. I hadn’t heard or thought of this argument at the time of the two homecomings. But now I realized that as I was thanking this doctor, he may have very well been involved with the abortion of other patient’s “extra” embryos, and this has greatly unsettled me.

I wouldn’t go for my annual OBGYN checkup at Planned Parenthood precisely because I don’t want to in any way support the fact that they perform abortions. But I don’t think that’s quite the same comparison. I can go elsewhere to get my checkup, and by choosing where to go, I do not save a baby’s life either way. In embryo adoption, while it’s true that I do support the same clinic that likely aborts other people’s babies, if I don’t go there, if I don’t pick up babies left for “adoption”, the other people’s babies doomed for abortion will be aborted regardless if I go or not, but the ones that might have been saved by my adopting them will likewise be doomed if I do not go.

I guess this is why the church states there is no moral solution to the lot of would-be adopted embryos. But while I know we can’t let moral relativism rule, I can’t help but think that the saving of a human life trumps any other sin that may be committed in the process, not on purpose, but as part of the landscape.

Right now, we don’t know how we feel about adopting embryos again. (By the way, we did try for 4 years with multiple fall throughs to adopt traditionally, and we are currently not eligible to adopt. Therefore, we are in need of God’s miracle one way or another - either through a natural conception, or through reopening our eligibility for adoption. Otherwise, our options are to accept life without children or adopt embryos. We obviously are interested in serving God in our decision, and we are not rushing it.)

I hope I can read your thoughtful feedback. God bless.