Interesting conversation with a neighbor

[cothrige]

Cristiano,

I think you may be reading too much into the statement the OP’s neighbor made (about retiring the Latin Mass).

Remember, he was talking about the “form” of the mass, not the “substance.” Consequently, he wasn’t insulting the Mass itself, or the Lord, rather, he was honestly echoing a prevailing sentiment of those times . . . .

If I may intrude with a comment here, I find this approach interesting. But, if your understanding is possible, then why is it that if a traditionalist suggests that the Novus Ordo be “retired” they are attacked ruthlessly for denying the validity of the holy Mass? Any suggestion that the OF is less than entirely equal to the EF is taken as very insulting indeed. Additionally, saying that the historic form of the Mass, which our Holy Father speaks of as equal in dignity to the OF, should “just die and be buried” sounds very insulting to me.

 

[marthaferretti]

Of course the point of this post was to contrast my neighbor’s comment about all his children leaving the Faith with the fact that he and his wife sent his kids to ‘Catholic’ schools (grades 1-8 are part of the parish) where the Faith was undermined at the same time he & his wife have been long-time parishoners at a modern ‘Catholic’ church where even the current pastor is never seen wearing a collar.

He asked me during one of our conversations if I’d ever been to Mass at this church since it is very close to our homes. I said I’ve never had any interest in going to Mass there. When asked why, I explained that all I had to do was see the outside of the church to know I had no desire to ever step foot inside the church.

Those on this thread who took issue with the fact that I laughed at his ignorant comments when he hoped that the TLM " dies and is buried ", should actually take issue with the comment rather than my reaction to it.

I ommitted part of my response to him in the OP. After questioning the number of vocations his parish had fostered over the years, I then asked him if he thought there might be any connection between the fact that this parish has fostered no vocations to the priesthood or religious life with the fact that none of his children practice the Faith anymore. I went on to say that I thought there likely was a direct link between the two. The connection I drew was those Catholic churches where the pastor took his vocation seriously, celebrated a reverent Mass, taught the Faith in an orthodox and unashamed manner, fostered a strong Catholic identity among his parishoners would naturally have interest among the youth to investigate a vocation to the priesthood or religious life.

Catholic churches where the pastor can’t even be bothered to dress as a priest send a signal to other Catholics and non-Catholics (including the youth) that the priesthood is nothing to be valued and people respond accordingly.

It was apparent to me that this thought process never crossed his mind. That’s what was so funny/sad about the whole situation. To me it’s all pretty obvious and takes no great insight. I don’t think that to this day he’d even admit that there might be a connection he’s so wedded to the ’ spirit of Vatican II '.

 

[laszlo]

Theologically the faith is God’s grace. Keeping the faith is the will of the individual. This will is influenced by many things. Reducing the loss of the faith to the be fault of the schools or parents and to claim that the main fault is abandoning the tradition, is deceiving ourselves.

The whole world is secularized. The Greed, the Sex, the Pride, Mammon, Astarte, Baal rules the world. The process started in the 19th Century.

We have to focus on the real reasons.

Those who try to believe that the abandonment of the TLM is the reason of the weakened faith had to meditate why St Pius X wanted to radically change the previous theology of the Mass (sacrifice of Jesus Christ offered by the priest alone) , and why the TLM today is heavily influenced by the activity of the people?

 

[PaulinVA]

Of course the point of this post was to contrast my neighbor’s comment about all his children leaving the Faith with the fact that he and his wife sent his kids to ‘Catholic’ schools (grades 1-8 are part of the parish) where the Faith was undermined at the same time he & his wife have been long-time parishioners at a modern ‘Catholic’ church where even the current pastor is never seen wearing a collar.

Well, yes, there are problems with the Church in 2011. Absolutely.

It’s really hard to humbly and gracefully urge people to increase in faith and revive the people who don’t know any better. You have not been successful so far.

 

[mardukm]

So you are saying that laughing at someone’s idiotic comments is worse that insulting the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I guess that we have different priorities.

I think it strange that supporters of the EF actually EQUATE the Sacrifice with the FORM of the TLM. I didn’t see the gentleman in the story insult the Holy Sacrifice at all. But by your equation of the Sacrific with the form of the TLM, it would seem you are doing the same to any other form of the Mass that does not agree with your taste?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

If I may intrude with a comment here, I find this approach interesting. But, if your understanding is possible, then why is it that if a traditionalist suggests that the Novus Ordo be “retired” they are attacked ruthlessly for denying the validity of the holy Mass?

Because that is the historic position of supporters of the TLM mass beginning with the SSPX, is it not? So why shouldn’t supporters of the NO feel that way? I notice those same sentiments expressed even now by supporters of the TLM. So you can’t exactly feign innocence on the part of suppoerters of the TLM.

Any suggestion that the OF is less than entirely equal to the EF is taken as very insulting indeed. Additionally, saying that the historic form of the Mass, which our Holy Father speaks of as equal in dignity to the OF, should “just die and be buried” sounds very insulting to me.

Fair enough. Then supporters of the TLM should not be saying the same of the NO, which the Holy Father also fully supports.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[TheRealJuliane]

That must have cast rather a pall over the evening…



Guess you probably won’t be invited back to your neighbor’s house …



Although I have to say I think it’s rather brave of you to get into such difficult topics, most people don’t want that kind of confrontation as dinner conversation.

 

[Skeptic92]

My neighbor is in his late 70’s and in a conversation about 1 year ago he was lamenting the fact that none of his four children practice the Faith even after sending all of them to Catholic school for grades 1 - 12.

Since I’m the same age as his children, I told him they don’t practice the Faith in large part because they were never taught the Faith while going to ‘Catholic’ school. He looked at me dumbfounded.

We live in the southeastern US where there aren’t many Catholics. The history of this diocese and the ‘Catholic’ schools here have not been known for their adherence to Catholic orthodoxy. Things are a little better now but the during the 1980’s - 1990’s the diocese was under poor leadership.

Shortly after this conversation this neighbor and his wife invited me and my wife to dinner at their home. He brought up the subject of our conversation again. He knows that I assisted at a TLM for many years whereas he & his wife go to a Catholic Church down the street which is not exactly traditional in its archtechture or practice of the Faith. He told me he went to the TLM for many years when he was a young man. He said that he hoped that the TLM would ‘die and be buried’.

I laughed at him at the dinner table. I asked him how many vocations to the priesthood and religious life had come from the large (3000 families) ‘modern’ neighborhood parish he went to for the last 40 years. He wasn’t aware of any. I then told him that the small traditional chapel I had been going to for the previous 6 - 7 years sent 4 young men to the seminary in the time I was there, had 2 young men ordained who went to seminary prior to my time there and sent 2 young women to the convent. Needles to say, he wanted to change the subject of the conversation.

It never ceases to amaze me that these Catholics don’t see any connection between how they practice the Faith and the fact that what they do bears little to no fruit either among their family or among other Catholics.

I don’t see where this became a EF vs OF conversation, as I get from your post, this was more of a reverence issue (the EF generally is more reverent, as it’s done by Priests that have a love for it, not because they have to). I agree that a more reverent Parish, fosters more vocations, my home parish is very reverent (my Priest at the moment is trying to bring back chanting of the readings, he’s starting with the Gospel in the next few weeks), yes the EF is celebrated weekly (Friday evenings), however most of the vocations are not coming from those that attend the EF (apart from myself), the rest are all the OF crowd on Saturdays or Sundays, with 4 of us currently discerning the Priesthood (some religious, some secular), 2 considering the Permanent Diaconate, and a further 4 considering religious life.

I can also say those that are currently discerning in my diocese (with 3 entering Seminary from my part of the Archdiocese), most have a connection to the Oratory, whether it’s the Birmingham, Oxford or London, which are very reverent in their celebration of either forms, and offer spiritual guidence to anyone who so asks for it.

 

[mardukm]

That must have cast rather a pall over the evening…



Guess you probably won’t be invited back to your neighbor’s house …



Although I have to say I think it’s rather brave of you to get into such difficult topics, most people don’t want that kind of confrontation as dinner conversation.

The OP seems not to have given a very good witness for supporters of the TLM with her own rudeness in someone else’s home.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Fatima_Vision]

Of course the point of this post was to contrast my neighbor’s comment about all his children leaving the Faith with the fact that he and his wife sent his kids to ‘Catholic’ schools (grades 1-8 are part of the parish) where the Faith was undermined at the same time he & his wife have been long-time parishoners at a modern ‘Catholic’ church where even the current pastor is never seen wearing a collar.

He asked me during one of our conversations if I’d ever been to Mass at this church since it is very close to our homes. I said I’ve never had any interest in going to Mass there. When asked why, I explained that all I had to do was see the outside of the church to know I had no desire to ever step foot inside the church.

Those on this thread who took issue with the fact that I laughed at his ignorant comments when he hoped that the TLM " dies and is buried ", should actually take issue with the comment rather than my reaction to it.

I ommitted part of my response to him in the OP. After questioning the number of vocations his parish had fostered over the years, I then asked him if he thought there might be any connection between the fact that this parish has fostered no vocations to the priesthood or religious life with the fact that none of his children practice the Faith anymore. I went on to say that I thought there likely was a direct link between the two. The connection I drew was those Catholic churches where the pastor took his vocation seriously, celebrated a reverent Mass, taught the Faith in an orthodox and unashamed manner, fostered a strong Catholic identity among his parishoners would naturally have interest among the youth to investigate a vocation to the priesthood or religious life.

Catholic churches where the pastor can’t even be bothered to dress as a priest send a signal to other Catholics and non-Catholics (including the youth) that the priesthood is nothing to be valued and people respond accordingly.

It was apparent to me that this thought process never crossed his mind. That’s what was so funny/sad about the whole situation. To me it’s all pretty obvious and takes no great insight. I don’t think that to this day he’d even admit that there might be a connection he’s so wedded to the ’ spirit of Vatican II '.

WOW!!!

Did you actually read this back before you submitted it?

It is apparent to you?

You told him that you had no desire to ever step foot in his church, after just seeing the outside of it?

Judging if a man is a good priest or takes his vocation seriously or not because he doesn’t wear a collar all the time?

Your angry at people who took exception to your thoughts and gave constructive criticism?

Here are a couple of passages from Sacred Scripture that I would like you to meditate on.

“Jesus meek and humble of heart.”

Mary: I am the humble handmaid (original word is slave) of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy word.

Jesus humbled himself unto death, even death upon a cross.

**“The humble will be exalted and the exalted will be humbled.” **

I once had a very wise man tell me “No humility, no holiness. No holiness, no heaven.” Those are words that I truly believe with all of my heart.

Also, please, I beg of you, humble yourself long enough to watch this short homily about humility.

I will post the link below.

youtube.com/watch?v=t5s10w6VRpI&feature=share

 

[marthaferretti]

In fact this gentleman and his wife have asked me and my wife to dinner several times since then and also invited us to go square dancing with them which is one of their hobbies. We’ve had them over for cookouts as well.

In no way was I rude in his home when invited for dinner. If anything, he wasn’t exactly being hospitable when he made his ignorant comments about his hopes that the TLM " dies and is buried " knowing that is where I go to Mass. My laugh at his comment wasn’t insulting in the least and he never took it that way.

@Fatima Vision. The pastor at this church never wears priestly clothes. Turtlenecks seem to be his preference. And yes, I do question a priest’s attitude about his priestly vocation if he can’t bring himself to even dress the part.

 

[TBolt1000T]

Frankly, I do not like the attitude of either the OP, or his/her neighbor. Judging a church by it’s outward appearance is wrong, to say the least. Maybe, the OP should at least try attending Mass there just once. He/she may find that the Mass is actually very reverent.

To the OP, if the parish in question started having an EF, would you not at least try attending it, simply because of the way the church was built?

 

[dconklin]

Sorry to rain on the Church-bashing parade, but 99% of the problem leading kids my age (I graduated Catholic HS in '85) away from the Church is with the parents. It is not the Church’s role to raise the kids and make sure they continue to be active members of their Church. The Church is there to support/assist the parents in doing their job. The kids in my family and the friends we grew up with are all active church-goers.

My parents were always active in the church. My sisters and I, as well as their husbands, are all employed by the Church. My wife is a past president of the Pastoral Council. The parishes we were raised in were nothing special. The priests were your typical priests.

It is shameful to bash a church or type of church or the wonderful men that hear the call to serve the Lord and us. The first step off the high-horse is a big one.

 

[cothrige]

Because that is the historic position of supporters of the TLM mass beginning with the SSPX, is it not? So why shouldn’t supporters of the NO feel that way? I notice those same sentiments expressed even now by supporters of the TLM. So you can’t exactly feign innocence on the part of suppoerters of the TLM.

I haven’t a clue. I read each post for what it says, not some imaginary idea of what must really be meant because of people’s secret motives. No traditionalists on this thread, including the OP, ever argued that the OF is invalid or should be abandoned. Rather, it was a non-traditionalist saying that about the traditional Mass. But, do people decry the evil of attacking the Holy Mass in the form of the EF? No, of course not, they jump on traditionalists denying the OF, which hasn’t even happened here.

If wanting one form of the Mass to go away is not attacking its validity or sacrilege against something holy then such a measure must apply to both forms which are equal in dignity. I have seen numerous threads where even a hint of criticism of the OF is met with supreme and very judgmental righteous indignation. It is equated automatically with an attack on the Mass in general and a denial of validity of the OF specifically. Where is the righteous indignation here? Sure, it showed up, but mysteriously it was still only visible against the so-called traditionalists. Some people have a personal axe to grind, and it shows. And every time I see it I become more sympathetic to the traditionalist cause.

Fair enough. Then supporters of the TLM should not be saying the same of the NO, which the Holy Father also fully supports.

Blessings,
Marduk

But, nobody has done that here. Why bring that up? If your underage children were to come home after having been out drinking would you pull them aside and lecture them about denying the validity of the OF? Does everything anybody says somehow equate to traditionalists denying the OF? In this thread a man was quoted as having said he wanted the EF to “just die and be buried.” That is extremely harsh. And how do people respond to it? By criticizing traditionalists, of course. It really is amazing.

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

In fact this gentleman and his wife have asked me and my wife to dinner several times since then and also invited us to go square dancing with them which is one of their hobbies. We’ve had them over for cookouts as well.

In no way was I rude in his home when invited for dinner. If anything, he wasn’t exactly being hospitable when he made his ignorant comments about his hopes that the TLM " dies and is buried " knowing that is where I go to Mass. My laugh at his comment wasn’t insulting in the least and he never took it that way…

When I read your original post I didn’t take it as if this was a rude argument between the two of you. I used to have conversations like this frequently with a family member while I was in protestant churches. Sometimes I think when people read or tell about a conversation it can sound as if it is heated when it really isn’t. Being able to have these conversations about our faith with others on friendly terms is a very good thing.

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

Are you sure it’s not the church’s architecture?

Seriously though, I’ve been in Volo; it’s very traditional looking, beautiful, and free from that megaChurch atmosphere. The priests and parishioners have made it that way. One can easily be inspired just being inside.

You probably were joking about the architecture but in some ways you are right. There is something about being in a traditional type church. Something that causes people to behave differently, more reverent. I know people will disagree but it seems when I enter a modern church with carpets and cushioned seats and very few statues or religious art it seems myself and the others around me tend to settle in and get a little more comfortable, a little less reverent of where they are. It gives a different attitude.
When attending a church that as one priest said, “is decorated to give us a sense of being in heaven,” we seem to act more reverent. :heaven:

 

[joclucsylv]

Sorry to rain on the Church-bashing parade, but 99% of the problem leading kids my age (I graduated Catholic HS in '85) away from the Church is with the parents. It is not the Church’s role to raise the kids and make sure they continue to be active members of their Church. The Church is there to support/assist the parents in doing their job. The kids in my family and the friends we grew up with are all active church-goers.

My parents were always active in the church. My sisters and I, as well as their husbands, are all employed by the Church. My wife is a past president of the Pastoral Council. The parishes we were raised in were nothing special. The priests were your typical priests.

It is shameful to bash a church or type of church or the wonderful men that hear the call to serve the Lord and us. The first step off the high-horse is a big one.

AGREED!!!

 

[papa_k]

As a former TLM person of 10-12 years experience, I look back now from the novus ordo catholic world I live in once again for almost as many years now (greatly mellowed out, but not faithless by any means), and get these cold chills wondering if all these young guys we sent to SSPX seminaries would eventually burn out on the movement and get out with regrets.

It’s a weird skeleton in my closet. I never imagined I’d lose interest in the TLM but I actually moved on to other hobbies, but these guys, they are really committed.

I didn’t want this to be a mean post. I write it with all sincerity and goodwill.

 

[mardukm]

Dear sister Ruth,

You probably were joking about the architecture but in some ways you are right. There is something about being in a traditional type church. Something that causes people to behave differently, more reverent. I know people will disagree but it seems when I enter a modern church with carpets and cushioned seats and very few statues or religious art it seems myself and the others around me tend to settle in and get a little more comfortable, a little less reverent of where they are. It gives a different attitude.
When attending a church that as one priest said, “is decorated to give us a sense of being in heaven,” we seem to act more reverent. :heaven:

Speaking to priests and parishioners at the Latin Masses I’ve been to, admittedly these were NO Masses, I’ve been told that the reason that people should be reverent in Church is because of the presence of the Eucharist.

I guess Traditional Catholics have a different standard. That’s very interesting to this non-Latin. It’s quite the difference, IMO.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Cristiano]

Cristiano,

I think you may be reading too much into the statement the OP’s neighbor made (about retiring the Latin Mass).

Remember, he was talking about the “form” of the mass, not the “substance.” Consequently, he wasn’t insulting the Mass itself, or the Lord, rather, he was honestly echoing a prevailing sentiment of those times . . . .

I encourage you to read the book “The Spirit of the Liturgy” by Romano Guardini. It is shows why and how the form is associated with the substance of the Mass. You cannot separate the two.

The book should not to be confused with the one by same title written by J. Ratzinger. It is a cheap and small booklet written quite some time ago. Guardini was one of those that some people would call the “innovators” of Vatican II.