Interesting conversation with a neighbor

[archangel04]

Am I misreading this statement? Are you saying that when an adherent of the OF actually says that he hopes the EF Mass would ‘just die and be buried’ it is an example of traditionalists thinking they are better than others? I can guarantee if any traditionalist said this of the Novus Ordo Mass people would come out in droves attacking the sacrilege and using it as an example that such people deny the validity of the OF. But, when a modern Catholic says it about the EF, silence. Well, not quite, people don’t miss the chance to somehow still attack the traditionally minded person. Typical.

It’s common on here

Frankly, I do not like the attitude of either the OP, or his/her neighbor. Judging a church by it’s outward appearance is wrong, to say the least. Maybe, the OP should at least try attending Mass there just once. He/she may find that the Mass is actually very reverent.

To the OP, if the parish in question started having an EF, would you not at least try attending it, simply because of the way the church was built?

I don’t like the attitude of the OP or some of the posters on here. Everytime we get someone posting an uneduacated post we also get those who secretly dislike the EF on here and start posting false statements about how you can’t truly particiapte in the EF and so on.

 

[cothrige]

You probably were joking about the architecture but in some ways you are right. There is something about being in a traditional type church. Something that causes people to behave differently, more reverent. I know people will disagree but it seems when I enter a modern church with carpets and cushioned seats and very few statues or religious art it seems myself and the others around me tend to settle in and get a little more comfortable, a little less reverent of where they are. It gives a different attitude.
When attending a church that as one priest said, “is decorated to give us a sense of being in heaven,” we seem to act more reverent. :heaven:

I think this is an excellent point which is often ignored by people. Many of the aspects of the faith which people often dismiss as unnecessary often contribute together to the unconscious passing on of our faith tradition. When we as a community build beautiful reverent buildings we are saying to everybody that comes there, including ourselves, that what goes on here, and what is housed here, is worthy of exceptional care. And when we reserve the Body and Blood of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ in unworthy and ugly tabernacles, celebrate Masses in low quality and ugly vestments, while standing in banal and uninspiring buildings empty of furnishings and iconography or religious statuary, we are subconsciously affirming to ourselves and everybody else that this is not that big of a deal. When our city halls and libraries are more inspiring and impressive than our churches we declare publicly which place holds more important things. Should we be surprised that our indifference in matters of church architecture, and other furnishings of our churches, has translated to indifference in the faith we practice there?

 

[TrueLight]

As a former TLM person of 10-12 years experience, I look back now from the novus ordo catholic world I live in once again for almost as many years now (greatly mellowed out, but not faithless by any means), and get these cold chills wondering if all these young guys we sent to SSPX seminaries would eventually burn out on the movement and get out with regrets.

It’s a weird skeleton in my closet. I never imagined I’d lose interest in the TLM but I actually moved on to other hobbies, but these guys, they are really committed.

I didn’t want this to be a mean post. I write it with all sincerity and goodwill.

Really interesting. Why do you think you lost interest in the TLM?

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

Dear sister Ruth,

Speaking to priests and parishioners at the Latin Masses I’ve been to, admittedly these were NO Masses, I’ve been told that the reason that people should be reverent in Church is because of the presence of the Eucharist.

I guess Traditional Catholics have a different standard. That’s very interesting to this non-Latin. It’s quite the difference, IMO.

Blessings,
Marduk

I agree. The presence of the Blessed Sacrament is and should be the very main reason for reverence but I, also feel that when we enter a church that reminds us of heaven, it reminds us that the Blessed Sacrament is there and we are in a holy place, God’s house.

Unfortunately I don’t attend a TLM because there isn’t one near me but I do attend a more traditional Catholic NO Mass and I do notice a difference in the contemporary churches and in those with more traditional architecture. I am not saying that everyone who attends a more contemporary church is less reverent. It’s just the awe factor you notice.

If you look up and find yourself surrounded by paintings of saints, it can remind you to pray for their intercession and also remind you of their presence and how they felt toward the Blessed Sacrament and some giving their lives for it.

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

The St John Cantius Fathers in the last three years, since they are around here at the North Subs ordained 3 priests, a deacon will be ordained this Thursday. Also just from our parish two young women get the habit.

They are mixed rite parish.

The reverence, not the form of the Mass draws the vocations.

Wow, I just watched the video about your parish. What a beautiful place and story.

cantius.org/go/about_us/category/video_about_saint_john_cantius_church/

 

[TimothyH]

… with just about 300 families.

Er… 3000. Sorry.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Of course the point of this post was to contrast my neighbor’s comment about all his children leaving the Faith with the fact that he and his wife sent his kids to ‘Catholic’ schools (grades 1-8 are part of the parish) where the Faith was undermined at the same time he & his wife have been long-time parishoners at a modern ‘Catholic’ church where even the current pastor is never seen wearing a collar.

He asked me during one of our conversations if I’d ever been to Mass at this church since it is very close to our homes. I said I’ve never had any interest in going to Mass there. When asked why, I explained that all I had to do was see the outside of the church to know I had no desire to ever step foot inside the church.

Those on this thread who took issue with the fact that I laughed at his ignorant comments when he hoped that the TLM " dies and is buried ", should actually take issue with the comment rather than my reaction to it.

I ommitted part of my response to him in the OP. After questioning the number of vocations his parish had fostered over the years, I then asked him if he thought there might be any connection between the fact that this parish has fostered no vocations to the priesthood or religious life with the fact that none of his children practice the Faith anymore. I went on to say that I thought there likely was a direct link between the two. The connection I drew was those Catholic churches where the pastor took his vocation seriously, celebrated a reverent Mass, taught the Faith in an orthodox and unashamed manner, fostered a strong Catholic identity among his parishoners would naturally have interest among the youth to investigate a vocation to the priesthood or religious life.

Catholic churches where the pastor can’t even be bothered to dress as a priest send a signal to other Catholics and non-Catholics (including the youth) that the priesthood is nothing to be valued and people respond accordingly.

It was apparent to me that this thought process never crossed his mind. That’s what was so funny/sad about the whole situation. To me it’s all pretty obvious and takes no great insight. I don’t think that to this day he’d even admit that there might be a connection he’s so wedded to the ’ spirit of Vatican II '.

You specifically mentioned the Southeast. My experience in the Southeast is much different. My experience in the Southeast is one of fervent faith and deep knowledge of the Bible, abundant vocations, orthodox teaching by fearless priests, and reverence.

-Tim-

 

[cothrige]

You specifically mentioned the Southeast. My experience in the Southeast is much different. My experience in the Southeast is one of fervent faith and deep knowledge of the Bible, abundant vocations, orthodox teaching by fearless priests, and reverence.

-Tim-

Wow, I wish that were so here. I don’t know what the OP may have meant by southeast, but I can say that here in the panhandle of Florida my experience has been the absolute opposite of yours. In fifteen years in this diocese I have never been to a Mass without flagrant liturgical abuse. While not as bad as some places I have heard about, indifference is certainly rampant here, and the spirit of evangelical bible-belt Protestantism is stronger in the Catholic churches here than is anything remotely Catholic. Baptists become Catholic and then take on very influential roles in the parishes, but they never really become Catholic because there is absolutely no Catholic identity in this area. Sadly, at its best, what we get is happy-clappy feel-good and watered down neo-Protestantism. At its worst, well, I won’t even go there.

 

[mardukm]

Dear sister Ruth,

I agree. The presence of the Blessed Sacrament is and should be the very main reason for reverence but I, also feel that when we enter a church that reminds us of heaven, it reminds us that the Blessed Sacrament is there and we are in a holy place, God’s house.

Unfortunately I don’t attend a TLM because there isn’t one near me but I do attend a more traditional Catholic NO Mass and I do notice a difference in the contemporary churches and in those with more traditional architecture. I am not saying that everyone who attends a more contemporary church is less reverent. It’s just the awe factor you notice.

If you look up and find yourself surrounded by paintings of saints, it can remind you to pray for their intercession and also remind you of their presence and how they felt toward the Blessed Sacrament and some giving their lives for it.

Oh I definitely agree. But if you happen to find yourself in a Church empty of these things, my question is - why should not the Presence be all-sufficient to inculcate a feeling of holiness?

I remember visiting a little chapel in Steubenville on the Fransciscan campus a couple of years back. It was a chapel specifically for Eucharistic adoration. It was very simple, nothing at all aesthetically beautiful about it, yet I definitely experienced a sense of holiness despite the lack of that aestheticism.

A sincere question - do you think that one can focus too much on the trappings of a Church and forget that it is the Eucharist itself that determines the actual holiness of the temple?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Cothridge,

Wow, I wish that were so here. I don’t know what the OP may have meant by southeast, but I can say that here in the panhandle of Florida my experience has been the absolute opposite of yours. In fifteen years in this diocese I have never been to a Mass without flagrant liturgical abuse. While not as bad as some places I have heard about, indifference is certainly rampant here, and the spirit of evangelical bible-belt Protestantism is stronger in the Catholic churches here than is anything remotely Catholic. Baptists become Catholic and then take on very influential roles in the parishes, but they never really become Catholic because there is absolutely no Catholic identity in this area. Sadly, at its best, what we get is happy-clappy feel-good and watered down neo-Protestantism. At its worst, well, I won’t even go there.

Have you spoken to these Baptists and figured out why, if there was no difference between the Baptist Church and the Catholic Church, they even bothered to become Catholic? It might be an eye-opener for you to help you figure out what being Catholic really means.

Do these parishes you are criticizing:
(1) Have celebration of the Eucharist?
(2) Does the priest obviously perform the Rite that changes the bread and wine into the body and Blood of Christ?
(3) Are they headed by a bishop in communion with the Pope?
(4) Does their Liturgy commemorate the bishop, the Archbishop and the Pope?
(5) Is the Liturgy of the Word celebrated with the various readings and the Gospels?

If it has all this (and more), what is the basis for your claim that the local Church there cannot be distinguished from the Baptists?

Looking forward to your answer.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Fatima_Vision]

Just a couple more quick thoughts on this, and then I’m done responding on this particular thread. I hope that the OP didn’t take my thoughts as attempting to be hateful, but rather, I was just trying to make the OP think about what they were saying and take a long look in the mirror at themselves.

The more I think about the words of the OP throughout this post, the more I just can’t help noticing a sort of blind arrogance & lack of humility that the OP doesn’t seem to see. And instead of taking some advise and doing some self examination of conscience, the OP seems to just be coming back with more blind arrogance in every post and doesn’t even see it.

First of all, I think the OP should remember that God Himself chose that his son would be born poor and be poor all of his life. Jesus even assures us several times that we shouldn’t be too attached to worldly things, and he also spent much of his time among the poor. He has also commanded us to feed & clothe the poor, and we shouldn’t spend all of our lives seeking worldly riches and things that make us too comfortable in this life.

I believe that if Jesus were to prefer one church over another, he wouldn’t make his judgement on the church by the way it looked, but on the people inside of it. I couldn’t see Jesus preferring a church stacked to the nines with artwork, statues and great architecture over a church that resembled a shack. I also believe that the OP is “judging from the outside” as God tells us not to do. I could however see Jesus preferring a church that resembled an old school house or a tent, where the poor or people with great reverence to God were.

Secondly. **(And I hope that the OP takes this message to heart) **

None us us are worthy of God’s love period, and conversion & holiness are a life long journey. I hope the OP didn’t mean it the way they said it, but by stating to their neighbor that the OP would “never step foot into their neighbors church because of it’s outside appearance” deemed God not worthy of him/her.

Knowing that Jesus is present in the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist in the tabernacle in** every **Catholic Church, the OP has found that particular church unworthy of them, even though Jesus is present there.

That is a direct insult to God and the OP’s neighbor, and just pathetic at best.

While I do agree that I prefer the older, Gothic style Catholic Church’s over the newer modern style- cookie cutter appearances of some, I still know that Jesus is present in **all **of them, and I treat them all with the same love, respect, awe and reverence.

 

[cothrige]

Have you spoken to these Baptists and figured out why, if there was no difference between the Baptist Church and the Catholic Church, they even bothered to become Catholic? It might be an eye-opener for you to help you figure out what being Catholic really means.

Hmmm, very droll. Whatever might we be suggesting here?

Do these parishes you are criticizing:
(1) Have celebration of the Eucharist?
(2) Does the priest obviously perform the Rite that changes the bread and wine into the body and Blood of Christ?
(3) Are they headed by a bishop in communion with the Pope?
(4) Does their Liturgy commemorate the bishop, the Archbishop and the Pope?
(5) Is the Liturgy of the Word celebrated with the various readings and the Gospels?

Better and better. So, this is the sum total of parish life to you then? This is how you raise your children? It is sufficient that “the priest obviously perform the Rite that changes the bread and wine into the body and Blood of Christ” but nothing more is asked beyond this? How we behave during that ritual, and how we treat the resulting “Body and Blood” are not Catholic practices to you? This is all there is, this short list? How sad for you. You are missing out. Have you spoken to people around you that have devotion to our Lord in the Sacrament, and who do more than just walk into churches and chat loudly with one another while others pray and asked them why they bother to show reverence and devotion to our Lord? It might be an eye-opener for you to help you figure out what being Catholic really means.

If it has all this (and more), what is the basis for your claim that the local Church there cannot be distinguished from the Baptists?

Nice try, but I didn’t say this. I said that what we have is “happy-clappy feel-good and watered down neo-Protestantism” due to the lack of a Catholic identity in the area. Hey, you may consider that to be what the poster I responded to called “fervent faith and deep knowledge of the Bible, abundant vocations, orthodox teaching by fearless priests, and reverence” but frankly, I don’t. I am trying to raise a family here and it is very difficult to teach your children devotion for the Lord when his churches are filled with noise and indifference and the people actively promote these ideals in classes and activities. There is more to being Catholic than merely having the Blessed Sacrament. A Catholic differs from a Baptist in many ways far beyond this meager list above, which ignores theological and ecclesiological teachings, a complete prayer life, understanding of the Communion of Saints, devotions, forms of reverence, and so on. Your post is perhaps a fantastic example of what is strikingly wrong in our churches, and why so few people show the least regard for what goes on and simply think having these few things, without fully understanding them or letting their reality inform their lives in a deeper way, are enough to make them “Catholic.” Not so.

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

Dear sister Ruth,

Oh I definitely agree. But if you happen to find yourself in a Church empty of these things, my question is - why should not the Presence be all-sufficient to inculcate a feeling of holiness?

I remember visiting a little chapel in Steubenville on the Fransciscan campus a couple of years back. It was a chapel specifically for Eucharistic adoration. It was very simple, nothing at all aesthetically beautiful about it, yet I definitely experienced a sense of holiness despite the lack of that aestheticism.

A sincere question - do you think that one can focus too much on the trappings of a Church and forget that it is the Eucharist itself that determines the actual holiness of the temple?

Blessings,
Marduk

Oh, I agree the presence of the Blessed Sacrament should be all sufficient to bring on a feeling of reverence and you could get caught up too much in all the beautiful architecture and forget about the Presence, just as the lack of those things can cause you to forget where you are and forget about the Presence

 

[Warrenton]

The reverence, not the form of the Mass draws the vocations.

I am curious - do you believe that anything can potentially be done with the same reverence as any other thing.

For example, could a priest eat a peanut butter sandwich as reverently as celebrating TLM.

Would this result in more Catholics eating peanut butter?