Interesting discovery of a Jewish/Catholic nature

[Sepharad]

I made a very interesting discovery, while researching something in my Jewish encyclopedia, I thought it might be of interest here too!

There is a Jewish prayer called Kaddish, which is said in Aramaic and is usually said when someone dies. I have always had a problem with this prayer, because in my childhood, just hearing the first line of it (in Aramaic) signaled that someone had died. Because of that (and because I lost so many loved ones when I was still little), it left a bad impression on me.

Well, for the first time I decided to read the English translation. Was I surprised! The prayer says nothing about death at all, but is a prayer honoring and praising the Name of God, and is a plea for the coming of the Messiah and his kingdom. I look at it in a new light now!

But in researching it further, I learned that the Kaddish prayer was incorporated into the Catholic Mass (the traditional one), in the Gloria and the Sanctus. The encyclopedia also said that the Lord’s Prayer, as formulated by Jesus, derives directly from the Kaddish prayer. I never realized any of this before, because I’d never read the prayer in English!

In something unrelated, I was also researching the Shekinah (a feminine Hebrew term for the Presence of God)…it said the Shekinah in Judaism was always represented as a dove. I then thought of the NT portrayal of God alighting on Jesus’ shoulder in the form of a dove, and realized that was where the first Christians got the idea for the dove portrayal from!

The Shekinah (feminine aspect of God) is also referred to in Judaism as the ruach ha’kodesh, which is Hebrew for holy spirit (Christian term).

 

[ralphinal]

Would you mind posting the prayer for us?

 

[b_justb]

Cool stuff Love those Jewish roots.

 

[Sepharad]

Cool stuff Love those Jewish roots.

Here it is, plus a further explanation which I found interesting too:

MOURNER’S KADDISH
An English Translation

Glorified and sanctified be God’s great name throughout the world which He has created according to His will. May He establish His kingdom in your lifetime and during your days, and within the life of the entire House of Israel, speedily and soon; and say, Amen.

May His great name be blessed forever and to all eternity.

Blessed and praised, glorified and exalted, extolled and honored, adored and lauded be the name of the Holy One, blessed be He, beyond all the blessings and hymns, praises and consolations that are ever spoken in the world; and say, Amen.

May there be abundant peace from heaven, and life, for us
and for all Israel; and say, Amen.

He who creates peace in His celestial heights, may He create peace for us and for all Israel; and say, Amen.

---

The Meaning of Kaddish

Having read the translation of the Kaddish Prayer, one should realize that, although Jewish Law requires that the Kaddish be recited during the first eleven months following the death of a loved one by prescribed mourners, and on each anniversary of the death (the “Yahrtzeit”), and by custom in the State of Israel by all Jews on the Tenth of Tevet ("Yom HaKaddish HaKlali’), there is no reference, no word even, about death in the prayer!

The theme of Kaddish is, rather, the Greatness of God, Who conducts the entire universe, and especially his most favored creature, each individual human being, with careful supervision. In this prayer, we also pray for peace - from apparently the only One Who can guarantee it - peace between nations, peace between individuals, and peace of mind.

Paradoxically, this is, in fact, the only true comfort in the case of the loss of a loved one. That is, to be able to view the passing of the beloved individual from the perspective that that person’s soul was gathered in, so to speak, by the One Who had provided it in the first place.

As Beruriah, the great wife of Rabbi Meir, consoled her husband, upon the death of their two sons, with words to this effect, "A soul is comparable to an object which was given to us - to each individual, to his or her parents and loved ones, to guard and watch over for a limited time. When the time comes for the object to be returned to its rightful owner, should we not be willing to return it? With regard to our sons, let us therefore consider the matter as ‘The Lord gave, and the Lord took back, may the Name of the Lord be Blessed!’ "

 

[ralphinal]

Beautiful

 

[rinnie]

That doesnt surprise me much, alot of the Catholic and Jewish faith is alike. To be honest alot of the Catholic faith is based on the Jewish faith(OT). If the truth me known we have alot more in common with the Jewish faith than any other. Its just the NT when the differences begin,

 

[Sepharad]

That doesnt surprise me much, alot of the Catholic and Jewish faith is alike. To be honest alot of the Catholic faith is based on the Jewish faith(OT). If the truth me known we have alot more in common with the Jewish faith than any other. Its just the NT when the differences begin,

Its true that the differences really begin with the NT, but sometimes, not even there! There is so much in the NT which as a Jew I can see derives from Judaism, esp. Judaism’s mystical tradition and teachings.

For example, remember the part where Jesus spoke of himself as wanting to gather Jerusalem under his wings, as a mother hen gathers her chicks?

That is a reference to the Shekinah, which is the feminine Hebrew word referring to God’s Presence. Jewish mysticism often speaks of the Shekinah as having “wings” to shelter the Jewish people.

Another example: remember when Paul spoke of being “crucified with Christ”? In the process of trying to say that Christians do not have to keep the Torah (something Judaism also agrees with), he made reference to a Jewish teaching that once a Jew dies, he no longer can keep Torah. This is why when an Orthodox Jew is buried, we tear his prayer shawl which he is buried in…to symbolize this fact. Paul is saying that Christians are now spiritually “dead” to the Torah in Jesus, and so do not have to keep Torah.

Another example is when Paul makes reference to circumcision. Blood is "shed in the process of circumcision, when a Jewish male is circumcised. This is seen as atonement for him…in other words, Jews are “saved” by being circumcised.

Paul recognized this, and so made the comparison between physical circumcision and circumcision of the heart, which he said, for Christians, is more important. As a Christian, he was trying to show that, just as Judaism believes that physical circumcision atones for sin, spiritual “circumcision” (accepting Jesus) atones for their sins as Christians.

 

[inJESUS]

Interesting…

 

[rinnie]

Its true that the differences really begin with the NT, but sometimes, not even there! There is so much in the NT which as a Jew I can see derives from Judaism, esp. Judaism’s mystical tradition and teachings.

For example, remember the part where Jesus spoke of himself as wanting to gather Jerusalem under his wings, as a mother hen gathers her chicks?

That is a reference to the Shekinah, which is the feminine Hebrew word referring to God’s Presence. Jewish mysticism often speaks of the Shekinah as having “wings” to shelter the Jewish people.

Another example: remember when Paul spoke of being “crucified with Christ”? In the process of trying to say that Christians do not have to keep the Torah (something Judaism also agrees with), he made reference to a Jewish teaching that once a Jew dies, he no longer can keep Torah. This is why when an Orthodox Jew is buried, we tear his prayer shawl which he is buried in…to symbolize this fact. Paul is saying that Christians are now spiritually “dead” to the Torah in Jesus, and so do not have to keep Torah.

Another example is when Paul makes reference to circumcision. Blood is "shed in the process of circumcision, when a Jewish male is circumcised. This is seen as atonement for him…in other words, Jews are “saved” by being circumcised.

Paul recognized this, and so made the comparison between physical circumcision and circumcision of the heart, which he said, for Christians, is more important. As a Christian, he was trying to show that, just as Judaism believes that physical circumcision atones for sin, spiritual “circumcision” (accepting Jesus) atones for their sins as Christians.

Now i am not someone who can debate, for I can not shove great degrees at you, But from the way i am always understood it the Jews were the Chosen People. And in the beginning the Jewish faith was the faith of Christ, But the Jews rejected Christ. But what people dont understand not all of the Jews did. Thats how many did became Christian. And to say the the Jewish faith was not true as a RCC i can not say that because the way i understand it the Jewish faith is the OT. I mean lets face it the Blessed Mother and Joseph were Jewish. Jesus was teaching in the temples. Its just that Jesus fullfilled the OT and changed things. But no matter what he changed he still never took away from the OT. Its was still his word and still is. I think he just explained the OT better to us is all. Correct me if im wrong but i was told that the Jewish faith do believe in Jesus, but they see him as a teacher, not God. They are still waiting for him to come.

 

[Kaninchen]

Correct me if im wrong but i was told that the Jewish faith do believe in Jesus, but they see him as a teacher, not God. They are still waiting for him to come.

You’re wrong.

Not a teacher to acknowledge, not Messiah, not God.

 

[Eden]

Great thread! Thanks for that!

 

[rinnie]

You’re wrong.

Not a teacher to acknowledge, not Messiah, not God.

Ok I am not Jewish, so i can not disagree with you. So who is Jesus Christ to your faith, how do you acknowledge him, or do you not acknowledge him at all? Please understand im not being disrepectful just asking?

 

[jen_fla]

i’ve always been taught that all religions contain some truth, but the Jewish FAith was the ONLY religion that contained ALL of the truth until the Catholic Church came along. but even then i never was taught that it was a new religion, just an extension (growing tree) of the one true faith.

interesting and beautiful post, Sepharad!

 

[rinnie]

i’ve always been taught that all religions contain some truth, but the Jewish FAith was the ONLY religion that contained ALL of the truth until the Catholic Church came along. but even then i never was taught that it was a new religion, just an extension (growing tree) of the one true faith.

interesting and beautiful post, Sepharad!

I agree totally with what you said, and I couldn have said it better. I have heard that more and more of the Jewish faith are turning toward the Catholic Faith. Thats is one reason the Catholic faith is on the rise once again. I think like this post they are starting to see that its not just we have alot in common. What they are seeing is that the comparisons are really just Jesus fullfilling the OT. Whatever it is, I would love to see them and love to welcome them in the Church someday;

 

[Kaninchen]

Ok I am not Jewish, so i can not disagree with you. So who is Jesus Christ to your faith, how do you acknowledge him, or do you not acknowledge him at all? Please understand im not being disrepectful just asking?

He’s not ‘acknowledged’ in the slightest.

 

[rinnie]

He’s not ‘acknowledged’ in the slightest.

Oh, ok at least now i know. How sad. Well at least some knew who he was. Thank God for the ones that did except him. Thank God for the Apostles thats were Jewish and accepted him.

 

[Kaninchen]

Oh, ok at least now i know. How sad. Well at least some knew who he was. Thank God for the ones that did except him. Thank God for the Apostles thats were Jewish and accepted him.

Well, you don’t imagine that I agree with any of that!

 

[Sepharad]

Ok I am not Jewish, so i can not disagree with you. So who is Jesus Christ to your faith, how do you acknowledge him, or do you not acknowledge him at all? Please understand im not being disrepectful just asking?

Actually, there are a number of Jews and Jewish leaders (usually of the more liberal, ecumenical persuasion) who regard Jesus as a great teacher (such as Dr Amy-Jill Levine, Professor of New Testament Studies; I forget which university she teaches at). But even they recognize that almost everything he taught had been taught by other rabbis before him. For someone without a background in Judaism and Jewish teachings, his sayings seem rather profound, but when you are familiar with Jewish teachings and sayings, you recognize them as things that had been said before, by others.

 

[Sepharad]

I agree totally with what you said, and I couldn have said it better. I have heard that more and more of the Jewish faith are turning toward the Catholic Faith. Thats is one reason the Catholic faith is on the rise once again. I think like this post they are starting to see that its not just we have alot in common. What they are seeing is that the comparisons are really just Jesus fullfilling the OT. Whatever it is, I would love to see them and love to welcome them in the Church someday;

I think you are making some assumptions that are not accurate.

I happen to have a very generous attitude toward Jesus (“generous” for a Jew, anyway!) Part of this is because I have been active in ecumenical work for many years. I see (and am still learning/seeing) how much the two faiths have in common.

BUT…that does not mean I believe ABOUT Jesus what Christians do. I do not regard him as a deity, or a messiah, or anything special other than the person around whom the Christian religion was founded.

I hope you understand that a kindly, generous attitude does not equate with acceptance of Christian dogmas. Unfortunately some Christians, in their eagerness to see Jews “accept Christ”, mistakenly think that a spirit of liberality about Jesus also equals belief in him.

As for your comment that more and more Jews are accepting Jesus…throughout history, when you consider how many Jews exist in the world, the number of Jews who convert to Christianity have always been miniscule.

 

[Kaninchen]

Actually, there are a number of Jews and Jewish leaders (usually of the more liberal, ecumenical persuasion) who regard Jesus as a great teacher (such as Dr Amy-Jill Levine, Professor of New Testament Studies; I forget which university she teaches at). But even they recognize that almost everything he taught had been taught by other rabbis before him. For someone without a background in Judaism and Jewish teachings, his sayings seem rather profound, but when you are familiar with Jewish teachings and sayings, you recognize them as things that had been said before, by others.

There are any number of people one might regard as a ‘great teacher’ (Buddha, Confucius, for example) without taking their teachings on board in one’s own belief structures).