Interesting discussion in my moral theology class

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Then you would have killed the unborn child since it depends on the mother to survive.:eek:
I do realize that. I hope everyone knows I wasn’t advocating that. I was trying to stretch the logic of the OP’s teacher to show the extremes it might lead to. After all, the mother bears just as much if not more responsibility for the death of her child that does the abortionist (provided that she is not being coerced). If no mothers took their children to be killed by abortionists, the doctors wouldn’t be killing anyone.

To make the two situations more equivalent, imagine that the baby in the mother’s womb is old enough to survive on its own outside the womb. By the OP’s logic, we could kill her to prevent the abortion. Then, we could just take the baby to the nearest neonatal unit to be cared for.
 
This is an interesting thread!

It seems that this is not akin to self-defense because, even if you interrupt the abortion by killing the doctor, the child is still in the mother’s womb and she can procure an abortion the next week, or the next day. Until we change the demand for abortion, there will always be a supply of abortionists. So, as we’ve seen, abortionists are replaced by other abortionists. The murder of the doctor does not save anything because another will step in to replace him.

If there’s no self-defense, this is just plain murder, which is intrinsically evil, and therefore cannot be defended based on intent or circumstance.

Ironically, the pro-life professor is advocating the violent act he so abhors - murder!
 
I think that this is a very, very interesting topic. I have thought about it before myself. Every point of reason I can think of seems to suggest that taking physical action against an abortionist to prevent the murder of an unborn child is not intrinsically immoral. I can’t get myself to come out and say I agree with that, however, because something about it seems wrong. Note that I do not refer to killing here, but only physical force. I think there is a big difference, because one can prevent an abortion without killing the abortionist but merely by knocking him unconscious, for example. In any case, I don’t know the answer, but I don’t think it’s nearly so easy to shrug off the idea as some would suggest.

For example, having read the thread, the objection that seems to be holding the fort, so to speak, right now is that killing an abortionist would only put off the abortion, not prevent it. This argument is simply fallacious.

On a battlefield, shooting an enemy soldier who is about to slay a companion may only put off his ultimate death, yet this is not immoral. If the mob has it out for a person and you walk in on the hitman about to pull the trigger, shooting him would not be immoral, even though the reality is you are just putting off the asassination by some period of time. In fact, we are all ultimately going to die at some point, so one might even find a good way to stretch the argument to say that its never alright to use force to defend the innocent because it only puts of the person’s death anyways.

Now those are all examples, but the real problem is that this argument attempts to judge the morality of an act on something that happens far in the future, as opposed to the act itself. An act itself is either moral or immoral regardless of indirect future results.

Now, I do think it would be immoral to actually kill the abortionist. If we take into account the Church’s teaching on the death penalty, we will begin to see why. The Church declares that the death penalty is moral, but only when it is the only way to protect others from an agressor. Thus, if a some super villian with terrible powers that could not be imprisoned were running around, then the death penalty may be warranted.

Now killing an abortionist won’t protect the child from the agressor, because as has been pointed out, another abortionist can be found, and thus I think the objection stands on this ground. However, as I said, even putting off an abortion by a few days may justify a lesser act of force, just as an agressor can have a lesser punishment - incarciration - put upon him if it will protect people even for a time, such as until the next agressor tries to commit a crime against them.

From reading Aquinas, I believe his answer would also be that one cannot intend to kill an abortionist to prevent an abortion, but one can use physical force that is not intended to kill the abortionist in order to prevent it:
I answer that, Nothing hinders one act from having two effects, only one of which is intended, while the other is beside the intention. Now moral acts take their species according to what is intended, and not according to what is beside the intention, since this is accidental as explained above (43, 3; I-II, 12, 1). Accordingly the act of self-defense may have two effects, one is the saving of one’s life, the other is the slaying of the aggressor. Therefore this act, since one’s intention is to save one’s own life, is not unlawful, seeing that it is natural to everything to keep itself in “being,” as far as possible. And yet, though proceeding from a good intention, an act may be rendered unlawful, if it be out of proportion to the end. Wherefore if a man, in self-defense, uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repel force with moderation his defense will be lawful, because according to the jurists [Cap. Significasti, De Homicid. volunt. vel casual.], “it is lawful to repel force by force, provided one does not exceed the limits of a blameless defense.” Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense in order to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s. But as it is unlawful to take a man’s life, except for the public authority acting for the common good, as stated above (3), it is not lawful for a man to intend killing a man in self-defense, except for such as have public authority, who while intending to kill a man in self-defense, refer this to the public good, as in the case of a soldier fighting against the foe, and in the minister of the judge struggling with robbers, although even these sin if they be moved by private animosity.
 
Ha, I don’t get pro-life people who advocate killing any human being. What, are we human while we a are fetuses but if we grow up to be an aboriton doctor our life isn’t sacred anymore?😉
 
Ha, I don’t get pro-life people who advocate killing any human being. What, are we human while we a are fetuses but if we grow up to be an aboriton doctor our life isn’t sacred anymore?😉
I don’t believe killing an abortion doctor is moral, but I don’t think this is really a fair characterization on two levels.

One, the difference between an abortionist and an unborn child is that of guilt. To kill an innocent person can never be defended, but the concept of killing the guilty is not, in itself, intrinsically immoral.

Two, the argument here isn’t about getting back at abortionists or not respecting their lives, but about the defense of the innocent. It’s a well established moral principle that one can protect an innocent person from harm. It’s got nothing to do with the sacredness of life. The life of a murder is just as sacred as anyone else’s, but nevertheless if shooting him will prevent the murder of an innocent person, it is the right thing to do.
 
I don’t believe killing an abortion doctor is moral, but I don’t think this is really a fair characterization on two levels.

One, the difference between an abortionist and an unborn child is that of guilt. To kill an innocent person can never be defended, but the concept of killing the guilty is not, in itself, intrinsically immoral.

Two, the argument here isn’t about getting back at abortionists or not respecting their lives, but about the defense of the innocent. It’s a well established moral principle that one can protect an innocent person from harm. It’s got nothing to do with the sacredness of life. The life of a murder is just as sacred as anyone else’s, but nevertheless if shooting him will prevent the murder of an innocent person, it is the right thing to do.
Amen, Brother!Or Sister! or whatever.
 
On a battlefield, shooting an enemy soldier who is about to slay a companion may only put off his ultimate death, yet this is not immoral. If the mob has it out for a person and you walk in on the hitman about to pull the trigger, shooting him would not be immoral, even though the reality is you are just putting off the asassination by some period of time. In fact, we are all ultimately going to die at some point, so one might even find a good way to stretch the argument to say that its never alright to use force to defend the innocent because it only puts of the person’s death anyways.
On the battlefield, killing enemy soldiers is the essence of the job. No one gets punished for that. Moreover, you are not merely putting off someone’s death by shooting an enemy soldier. You have ambulatory human beings, reinforcements, life-saving technology, medics, warplanes, etc. Anything can happen in war. Soldiers can hide, escape, be reinforced, etc. No life or death is imminent in this example.

With abortion, the life is in the womb, and in the total control, of the mother. She can determine when, where, why, and in private, to extinguish this human life. So, preventing an abortion is an excellent thing, but it does not prevent the murder from occurring the next day, week, or month, until the child is born. There is an inevitability to it happening UNLESS the mother changes her mind. Killing the doctor is not the answer, for this very reason. Stopping the doctor in a peaceable manner may seem efficacious, but it will not stop the ultimate abortion if the mother still insists.

Unless and until we change the hearts and minds of this country, there will always be abortionists, and there will always be abortions. Prayer, fasting, and conversion are the answers, not violence.

Moreover, St. Thomas Aquinas is referring to self-defense. Although it is laudable to defend innocent lives, especially those who cannot defend themselves, this is not “self” defense. True, you should stop a murder of an innocent adult if you can, but killing someone to prevent the mother from making, and re-making, this decision seems out of proportion given the inevitability of the outcome.
 
My best freind and I once had an ongoing discussion about this very topic for about a year on and off.I agree that the moral delema had us on the verge of a major abortion clinic rampage.You see we thought that if abortionists were guilty of murdering the innocent then some that knew of this would be obligated to put a stop to it.Well after a lot of discussion and prayer,I felt that Our lord was showing me that to kill in His name would in this circumstance be using the tactics of the enemy.Murder is satan’s weapon not God’s.Under our culture and circumstances the killing of abortionists without due process was immoral.Our duty was to encourage in all things within our sphere of influence the changeing of hearts.Do our best to bring our culture into repentance and right relationship to God.So, we did’nt go through with our plans for murder and mayhem.Thanks be to God.
:yup: Yes!
Christains have been given a mandate and the tools needed to treat the
* root*** **cause **of sin!!
*Treating *symptoms profits little!
 
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