Interesting essay about veiling and Latin

[ChristMyLife]

He did nothing of the sort.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Welcome home to the Catholic church!.

I am a revert and remember longing for that unity, also, while being in the protestant churches.

I don’t like it inferred that I am embracing an inferior version of Catholic Christianity

There is nothing inferior about Catholicism today or in the past. The Catholic church was started by Christ and has a long and beautiful history. We are just only living part of the Church’s timeline right now. The Catholic church has had good and bad times, ups and downs, and many councils and synods over the years, all with something to teach us. It helps not to look at the Church as just now or then but continuous and just as we work to understand what is happening now in the Church, it is good to never forget our history and that the Church has been here since Christ.

God bless.

 

[goout]

Loud-living-dogma:

Interesting points about our (contemporary American society’s) lack of culture, and what that means.

…
For starters, it makes the rare but accurate observation that “understanding every prayer uttered is not the actual purpose of the Mass. Sacrificial worship is directed to God, not man”.

The Mass is directed to God by those gathered, as a community.

This is entirely true, and seems to be understood the world over except by modern Christians. You couldn’t find a single Hindu or Muslim to support the idea of eliminating their Sanskrit/Arabic prayers in favor of vernaculars. They all reason: If you want to understand it, you study. If not, fine, you just memorize it without understanding, and your prayer will still be valuable as long as you worship God whole-heartedly.

Christianity is wholly unique among all other religions. And so our worship should reflect that uniqueness. Part of that uniqueness is the recognition of our close communion to God through Christ. Notice the similarity between communion and communication.
The Gospel is, literally, Good News. And if news is to be news, it must be communicated. Understanding greatly aids communication.

The RCC was no different prior to VC2. Whether you understood or not, prayer was in Latin.

Latin has been around for centuries, dating to a time when illiteracy reigned, and there were no printing presses. So there are practical considerations with language.
In this age, communication is instantaneous and plentiful. Are we to believe the satanic language of our culture should be heard more easily than the language of the Mass? The Church in it’s inspired wisdom chooses to make the Mass accessible and to speak clearly to it’s people.

Why did the Mass have to be made “accessible” while we all agree that in order to understand Shakespeare one must put in the time and effort to understand his language?

Scripture scholars have already been doing this for centuries.
So, ?

The author’s answer is that the modern world isn’t really a cultured environment:

And again, the Church recognizes that counter-cultural communication with our people is not only wise, it’s the best way to proclaim the Gospel.

I think there’s no denying that the switch from Latin to the vernacular reflects a profound misunderstanding on the part of those who re-designed the liturgy, namely that literal comprehension prayers, readings, etc. contributes to the efficacy of worship. In truth though, the efficacy of one’s worship is determined by the intensity of one’s reverence.

False dichotomy.

 

[Fraevo63]

@MagdalenaRita
I hear so much negativity about the Novus Ordo Mass it saddens me… It’s like the Church is two parts and I’m left hoping I’m in the “right one”. I know God called me back to Him last summer. I truly believed He wanted me in the Catholic Church. But this talk of V2 hurting the Church has me concerned.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

No; it means he waxes loquacious over the use of Latin, a language that in the 1950’s, odds were that 99% of those in the pew in the average parish had nearly no understanding other than a few catch phrases.

I think that was part of his point, that Latin, is something that was lost over time as it was removed from schools. Perhaps if Latin had continued to be a subject taught in schools, Mass attendees would have understood it, even in the 1950’s.

I asked her what she thought about Vatican 2.

Her immediate response was “Oh! The Mass In English!”

Glad to know she wasn’t one of the many who were heartbroken and left. I have known those who did. I am still praying they return to the faith.

My mother had 70 first cousins, many of whom I knew over the years, and they were delighted with the change to the vernacular,

I think this can go many different ways. We all have family, some more, some less. I can point to many in my family who were extremely saddened with the loss of Latin and some even left the Church.

Just because they all grew up on country farms is no reason for you or anyone to look down the end of your nose at them -

I am a little curious about this. We’re all a bunch of country and farm people here also. Maybe I missed the insult somewhere. My mom was a farmer’s daughter and she said she never had any problem with Latin. ?? I don’t get the connection.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

@MagdalenaRita
I hear so much negativity about the Novus Ordo Mass it saddens me… It’s like the Church is two parts and I’m left hoping I’m in the “right one”. I know God called me back to Him last summer. I truly believed He wanted me in the Catholic Church. But this talk of V2 hurting the Church has me concerned.

It can be concerning. This is just how I look at it, there are those that see the Church as a new Church since Vatican II and can only see Vatican II. It is not that they do not accept anything of the past, they just can’t seem to look anywhere except Vatican II. This is mostly from those who were part of the changes and in all charity to every one here at CAF but many here have this modern view.

There are those that prefer things the way they were before Vatican II and have difficulty seeing past it, so all changes made after Vatican II are not good.

Then there are those that take a balanced view (and I think these are the majority and those who have the correct view). They see the Church from the start, when Jesus gave the keys to Peter, and they accept the whole package, good and bad, all the councils, traditions and saints of old and new. They see the Church as one and a family and just like any family there are disagreements and likes and dislikes.

God bless and

I, hope I didn’t offend anyone with this post because that is not my intention.

 

[Mintaka]

The thing is, liturgical Latin was never vernacular Latin, just as liturgical Greek was not street Greek and liturgical Hebrew was not street Hebrew. It was not archaic Latin either, because Christians had to come up.with new ways to talk. It was designed to be very poetic, to reference the Hebrew and Greek versions of the Mass, and to use some ancient pagan sacrificial language, or poetic references, to increase the solemnity of things.

Not so much a veil, as using the correct level of speech for an overwhelming occasion.

So if the Mass had been translated into English by Gerard Manley Hopkins and G.K. Chesterton, with tons of solemn puns and alliteration and rhetorical devices, that would be liturgical English.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Interesting points about our (contemporary American society’s) lack of culture, and what that means.

I liked the article. I liked that he didn’t just look at the changes in the Church but also in the culture.

He had great points about what the “veil of mystery is” is and why it is needed.

“What is missing is the veil – the veil of mystery”.

"What is a veil? A veil is a covering. Its use is a rich occurrence seen throughout Scripture. The Holy of Holies and the Ark of the Covenant are hidden. A veiling essentially is a revealing. To veil something is to reveal it as altogether important, sacred, and worthy."

These are not just a sentiments he alone has and they are not just sentiments expressed by those who prefer the TLM but by those who yearn for the sacred to return to the Catholic church.

Really? This is news to me – that anyone has a desire to hear my every amplified breath when I am the Presider at Eucharist. I have never heard that before…from anyone.

I think he was exaggerating when he said, “every amplified breath” but I have heard many people say, they "can’t hear or understand what the priest is “saying to them” when it is in Latin or the priest speaks too fast, the sound system is bad or sometimes people will complain about not being able to understand what is being said to them if you have a priest from a different country with a strong accent, who is difficult to understand. Many Catholics fail to realize that the priest is praying to God and not speaking to the congregation, except during the homily. A common misunderstanding. At a recent Bible study at our parish when we were told that the priest isn’t talking to us but praying to God, you could see all the lights go on in peoples faces.

 

[Sunbreak]

I grew up with the Latin Mass and saw the transition in my early teens. This article is a ridiculous assessment of the situation.

 

[Mi_Rose]

I am once again
annoyed by the use of the word veiling. Women before Vatican 11 never referred to covering their heads as veiling.
They covered their heads. In the US it was more often than not with hats. To me that makes the whole premise of the article off.
When I was a girl and wore a hat to church every Sunday was I “hatting”?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I am once again
annoyed by the use of the word veiling. Women before Vatican 11 never referred to covering their heads as veiling.

The article really isn’t about women and the veiling of their heads but the use of Latin as a veiling of the sacred. The author sees Latin as sacred.

I kind of like this from Sonja Corbitt on the meaning of the veil in the OT and how in the NT it still symbolizes the presence of God.

https://www.biblestudyevangelista.com/wp-content/uploads/070918_The-Woven-Veil.pdf

 

[exnihilo]

For starters, it makes the rare but accurate observation that “ understanding every prayer uttered is not the actual purpose of the Mass. Sacrificial worship is directed to God, not man ”.

Even in the new Mass there are still secret prayers. So there is no denying your point. So it is worth understanding why they are secret in order to better understand the excellent logic of the Tridentine Mass.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

I mean, I’d appreciate it if you would quit making alternate accounts to get around your permanan, but if wishes were fishes, right?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Very well put. He is a Cardinal very faithful to the teachings of the Church.

 

[exnihilo]

One major criticism of the Catholic Church was the use of Latin.

Clearly a misdiagnosis if the problem. The early Protestants laid out their claims of why the Catholic Church was wrong and this was never a major issue.

At a recent Bible study at our parish when we were told that the priest isn’t talking to us but praying to God, you could see all the lights go on in peoples faces.

That reveals a serious problem. The people at the Bible study are likely the more educated people about the Faith. And yet even they don’t understand the basics of the Mass. How can that be? Where has the failure been? They can hear all the prayers and yet still don’t understand them.

 

[otjm]

Latin was taught in schools, and knowing how to read Cicero did not make one fluent in Church Latin any more than, for example, having a high school series of classes in Spanish made you fluent in Spanish.

as part of being in the seminary in college, I took 2 more years of Latin, and there were maybe one or two of my classmates who could try to speak Latin.

There is a marked difference between being able to translate what you are reading and being able to understand “on the fly” what was said, and from the people I have personally met who attend the EF, and from others I have corresponded with, none have Latin as what would be considered a second language.

My mother used the missal along with us using the ones she bought for us, and she was so pleased when she could simply listen to the priest in English - it was not as if she had had to simply sit and have the priest speak in Latin.

I can speak to two parishes out here in Oregon which have the EF. One has a small chapel, and has maybe 100 to 150 people in regular attendance. The other has one EF, at 6 a.m. and has something like 40 rows of benches, and does not even fill the first 10; this is the parish which has 7 other Masses; one in Vietnamese which is about 3/4 full; three in English and three is Spanish. So when you say “many” I have no idea how that fits with the overall membership in the US. As to parishes which have the EF, the last count was just a hair under 3% in the entire US = of 17,200+/- parishes. Were there 'many" of the people in the parish she grew up in who missed the EF? These were people who were born anywhere from the 1880s forward to my birth in 1946. Undoubtedly there were a few, but they kept going to Mass, and the EF is still not said there.

So “many” is often used in these discussions, but no one ever seems to come up with an actual count. It has been a minority, and as those who were raised in the EF as I was are dying off way faster than new recruits are being made. That is a simple fact.

My post to which you responded was not and is not a put-down of the EF - I have way, way too much respect for it. It was directed to those who have (or come across as having) a superiority complex about the EF and belittle those who don’t. Or as I have said, were they to be transported back in time to the Last Supper or a Mass of the early Church, would criticize how poorly it was done.

 

[exnihilo]

One has a small chapel, and has maybe 100 to 150 people in regular attendance. The other has one EF, at 6 a.m. and has something like 40 rows of benches, and does not even fill the first 10; this is the parish which has 7 other Masses; one in Vietnamese which is about 3/4 full; three in English and three is Spanish.

Latin masses are often at inconvenient times and locations. Which makes it hard to judge how popular they would be.

The fact that their are Masses in other languages betrays the lie of the vernacular. I could make no sense of Vietnamese. Even with my rather poor Latin a EF Mass would be far easier to understand. Of course the parts meant to be heard by the people are in the vernacular, or someone’s.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Latin was taught in schools, and knowing how to read Cicero did not make one fluent in Church Latin

Following along in Latin, and having English side by side, helps you to know what is being said at Mass. Just the same as at our parish when we pray the Agnus Dei in Latin, everyone sings it good and loud and knows what they are saying.

and there were maybe one or two of my classmates who could try to speak Latin.

none have Latin as what would be considered a second language.

I wasn’t implying that people should speak Latin as a second language but that they would understand the parts of the Mass.

I can speak to two parishes out here in Oregon which have the EF…

I remember a time when there wasn’t an EF Mass to be found anywhere. My father did all he could to keep us in a parish that at least had a reverent OF Mass somewhat close to what the EF is like. Now there are EF Masses and churches sprouting up in most every state and country. I will agree there are not as many as there are OF and it is a slow growth but that will take time. Like the saying goes, “it only takes a spark”. I think this crisis in the Church is drawing people to a desire for more sacred.

those who were raised in the EF as I was are dying off way faster than new recruits

So, and I say this in the utmost of charity because I was raised right on the border of the changes, but those who are younger than us, long for the sacred, are not attached to the time period of the changes, say pretty much the same thing; “when the generation of those attached to Vatican II are gone, we will restore the sacredness to the Church”.

God bless.

 

[otjm]

When 97% of the parishes do not have an EF, and when a priest who is fully committed to saying the EF publicly publishes an article saying that in his opinion and from his view, the EF is in danger of coming close to falling out of existence, then I think there is ample evidence to the contrary.

His point, contrary to yours, is the the EF is not “sprouting up in every state and country”. And he is well aware that even where the EF exists, only a minority of a minority attend it.

To increase even 1% of parishes, there would have to be 172 parishes starting the EF. The parish I noted nearby has some 3,500 families, and isn’t even attracting 1% of them to the EF.

As to reverence, it has been noted elsewhere that what are labeled the "john Paul 2 priests, those inspired by him to enter the priesthood, are not fighting the battles of the 1970’s and 1980’s, and they already exhibit the reverence of which you speak.

A whole lot of ink has been spread about the “youth seeking reverence and joining the EF”. I will not repeat my comment about the parish near me; yes there are youth there.

I speak about facts, and get accused of being anti-EF. The facts simply are the facts, and all the emotional positive responses those who attend the EF give do not comport with the facts.

When Pope Benedict granted the wider use of the EF, this forum was awash in a positive emotional response which predicted the soon demise of the OF.

Mmmm Hmmmm. It is far more likely that the EF has achieved stasis, and as the priest wrote, if people want the EF to survive, they need to get a great deal more fervor and action to get it to increase.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

when a priest who is fully committed to saying the EF publicly publishes an article saying that in his opinion and from his view, the EF is in danger of coming close to falling out of existence, then I think there is ample evidence to the contrary.

In all charity, I do not know who the priest is that said this but, I am pretty sure he is wrong and that the EF is not falling out of existance. For one reason, it is part of our Catholic faith, and part of our Church that Christ promised to protect.

As to reverence, it has been noted elsewhere that what are labeled the "john Paul 2 priests, those inspired by him to enter the priesthood, are not fighting the battles of the 1970’s and 1980’s, and they already exhibit the reverence of which you speak.

I, do agree that there are many John Paul 2 priests that are not attached to Vatican II and definitely have more reverence saying Mass today and I am very grateful for that, but trust me, not all are so reverent. I could say more about that but I think I will not.

I speak about facts,

Facts can be a funny thing. They can be seen one way by one group and another way by someone else.

FSSP Sees Growth 10 Years After Summorum Pontificum

Over the last decade, the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, which celebrates the traditional Latin Mass, has expanded in North America.

www.ncregister.com

I understand where you are coming from.

God bless.