Interesting essay about veiling and Latin

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Christ did not promise to protect the EF; he promised to keep the Church against the gates of Hell. that has been taken for 2,000 years to protect doctrine and morals. the form of the Mass is disciplinary, and that can differ (as exemplified by the 20+ Eastern rites).

I would tend to believe the priest, not that the EF will fall out of existence, but that if it does not grow (and currentlly it appears at stasis), it is in danger of becomening nothing more than a museum piece. He is in the middle of it, I am not; and his warnings might be worth examining. Somewhere in the past couple of years there is a thread about it.

And you misread my statement; the John Paul 2 priests are very attached to Vatican 2; they are trying, as many bishops are now trying, to continue the proper implementation of it. there are 16 documents; Sacred Liturgy is only one of them. They simply do not have the battles the priest one or two generations before them had.

So, how much have the FSSP expanded? If they added one more parish, they have expanded, but that does not mean particularly anything on the scale of 17,200 parishes. In fact, according to the article, in 10 years they added 10 parishes (48 to 58) which is an increase of 1/1725 of all the parishes in the US. An average of 1 per year just about gets us to stasis, as there have been parishes which have closed the EF.

If you wish to continue this discussion, I would suggest that instead, you spend significant effort in getting others you know who do not attend the EF, to do so. As you note, others can look at facts, often through the proverbial rose colored glasses. their view of reality does not change the reality. There is a vast difference between something that is widely practiced, and something that is practiced widely.
 
otjm said:
If you wish to continue this discussion, I would suggest that instead, you spend significant effort in getting others you know who do not attend the EF,
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Actually, I am not wanting tocontinue the discussion. I do not have any idea who the priest is you are talking about. I am not sure if something has been taken out of context from somewhere, how long ago he said it, if he himself still says the EF, or whatever, so I can’t even comment on what he is saying. I also understand you did not have good experience with the TLM when you were growing up, as with everything, some see things as good and others do not, and so I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

As I said earlier, I understand where you are coming from but disagee with you.

God bless.
 
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The FSSP is small, but growing. The Catholic Church in the US has fewer parishes over the last ten years whereas the FSSP has more. So while FSSP parishes are still rare there obviously is a serious interest in the EF.
otjm said:
I would suggest that instead, you spend significant effort in getting others you know who do not attend the EF, to do so.
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I’d attend the EF but there isn’t one offered in my city. It is hard to measure true interest if something isn’t available.
 
There has been an EF in my city for over 20 years. It now has it’s own parish, is celebrated at a prime time on Sunday morning, is within an hours drive of 98% of 300,000 Catholics and has an average weekly attendance of about 150 in a sanctuary that seats 750+.
 
We’d need to know more about your area to know what those numbers really mean. I’ve been to plenty of NO Masses where there aren’t many people.
 
exnihilo said:
We’d need to know more about your area to know what those numbers really mean. I’ve been to plenty of NO Masses where there aren’t many people.
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You know, that is a very good point. We just recently lost one of our Masses due to a huge decrease in attendance and I recently spoke with a man who attends a parish about 20 miles away in another town and he had a similar experience at his parish, where they lost two Masses, due to such a decrease in attendance.
 
Given the fact that I served as an altar boy not only in grade school but also in high school, and while I was in seminary college (as Master of Ceremonies at Solemn High Masses), I fail to see why you think that I had a bad experience of the EF. And by the way, both the EF and the OF can be called The Latin Mass as both are promulgated in Latin, and the OF is celebrated occasionally in all Latin.
 
Well, if you don’t like those big numbers, 98% of 300,000 is 294,000. And if we are talking about all who were baptized, we could reduce it to 20% who attend Mass weekly; so that would be 58,800. and 150 of those attending an EF would be 0.002551%
 
No, that is 300,000 Catholics in my diocese, of which 98% live within a 1 hour drive of the EF Mass.

There are 6 OF Masses within a 5 mile radius of this parish at about the same time. The sanctuaries seat between 300-800 people and are typically between 40-60% filled.
 
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I somehow linked to you instead of exnihilo, who demand “more information”

Sorry for the confusion.
 
I am not saying that you had a bad experience as it certainly seems like you were quite involved in assisting at Mass, which I think is very awesome but that you were bothered, as you rightly should have been, at things that were happening at that time, like people coming in late, leaving right after communion, reading the bulletin during Mass, just staring off, people going to Mass on Sundays just because they had to.
otjm said:
there was much in need of correction, and the correction was so long overdue that the reaction was swift and vicious. Had it been done centureis before, or even decades before and brought in gradually, we would not have the angst some still harbor. But it is what it is.

And unlike some herein, it was centuries long overdue.
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otjm said:
And by the way, both the EF and the OF can be called The Latin Mass as both are promulgated in Latin, and the OF is celebrated occasionally in all Latin.
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Yes, that is true and though it is not all Latin, I think the Mass on EWTN is most usually done very beautifully.
 
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It was a major issue with the people I knew. It was also enough of a major issue for other people that it was a major point of discussion in the catechisms of my parents’ generation.
 
I guess I wonder about the concept of “Catholic culture”. Do we have a Catholic culture to some degree in the US? In what way? Is Catholic culture saturated by the secular culture? Did we used to have a Catholic culture - - or is that illusory? Or overrated?
 
We used to have a Catholic Culture

"I began serving the “old Mass” as an altar boy in 1927. I am now 88 years old, 62 years as a priest. As a lad, knowing the perfect recitations of all the Latin Mass responses, I dealt with priests of every age and devotion and I do not recall any who deliberately mumbled their prayers. The churches were not air-conditioned in those days and in the hot summer days it was not uncommon to omit the sermon; Low Mass might last for only 20 minutes, and Communions were much fewer in those days. Now with the Novus Ordo, I have attended Mass in 10 minutes. A possible scandal.

The only scandal I can recall in the old days was people sleeping during the sermon. Nobody complained about the Eucharistic fast from midnight; nobody complained about Communion on the tongue or about the Latin. In fact, we were proud of the Latin we knew. Non-Catholics marveled at the piety and the reverence of the congregation and the head-coverings of the women. Those were the glory days of the Church when our Catholic faith was a family thing, a treasure we prized. Our faith was so much a part of our life that it colored our moods, shaped our social activities, influenced our style of dress, and flavored our conversation. How many families can make the same claim today?

Last Sunday I experienced what perhaps was the greatest joy of my priesthood. I could scarcely contain myself. Indeed, my cup runneth over. I celebrated the Tridentine Latin Mass with a congregation of two hundred people. It was like a repetition of my First Holy Mass 56 years ago. It was a Missa Cantata — those sacred Gregorian melodies so fitting for worship: the solemn Trinity Preface, the solemn Pater Noster, the Holy Gospel, and the Orations.

My daily vernacular Mass has been a joy in my life, but there was always something about this Tridentine Latin Mass that went beyond all telling. I’ve found something that I had lost some 35 years ago. All those years my heart ached for the Latin Mass that I had lost, always hoping that some day, please God, I would find it. Last Sunday I found it. And like the widow of the Gospel who found her lost coin and who called in her neighbors to rejoice with her, now I was the one who wanted to call in the whole world to share in my joy. It was like being away from home all these years and always hoping that some day the permission for me would arrive to return home and share again with my dear ones the joys of long ago. It was home sweet home again. My joy knows no bounds.

My humble and ineffable thanks to our good Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, the Good Shepherd who went out looking for all those abandoned sheep to lead us back home again — to Rome, sweet home.

Would I go back to the new Mass? No way!"

Rev. Charles Schoenbaechler, C.R.
Louisville, Kentucky **
newoxfordreview.org/letters.jsp?did=1004-letters
 
May God continue to bless you, Father and increase your joy. Thank you for your faithfulness to your vocation.
 
My grandmother complained about the Eucharistic fast, or rather the behavior and contradiction that she encountered. the Mgr preached that children should not be punished for not receiving communion on days of group communion. My grandmother made my father and his brother eat breakfast before they went to school. Because they had already eaten they did not receive holy communion with the rest of the children. The nuns noticed this and punished them. My grandmother complained to the Mgr about this and how he had said that children should not be punished for not receiving Holy Communion. From what I gathered he really didn’t do anything about it.
 
That’s interesting about the Communion fast, and how did school children fast on a school day? I heard my RCIA priest talking about this, and he said that the kids had some kind of breakfast / snack after school Mass. Presumably your father didn’t have that? How else would kids get through the day without any breakfast?
 
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Thank you so very much for this post.
CradleRC58 said:
Those were the glory days of the Church when our Catholic faith was a family thing, a treasure we prized. Our faith was so much a part of our life that it colored our moods, shaped our social activities, influenced our style of dress, and flavored our conversation.
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This is just how I remember it also. It is not the same today.
 
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Thanks, but that is a letter a priest wrote. I’m just a layman who knew him.

He died in 2013.
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Fr Charles Schoenbaechler Has Passed On Traditional Catholicism
Fr. Charles Schoenbaechler, CR died Wednesday I’ve just learned. I can’t say anything this letter written by him to the New Oxford Review already says about him. He wrote in response to accusations the priests mumbled the prayers to the TLM. ** I began serving the “old Mass” as an altar boy in 1927. I am now 88 years old, 62 years as a priest. As a lad, knowing the perfect recitations of all the Latin Mass responses, I dealt with priests of every age and devotion and I do not recall any who de…
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My apologies to anyone who misunderstood my post of the letter written by Fr Schoenbaechler.
 
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