Interesting - Eucharistic Flash Mob

  • Thread starter Thread starter At_Trent
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
ddarko said:
I am only against the randomness. Even if the friar has no parish, he can simply notify the parish priest.
Click to expand...
Why? We have never done that in 800 years. If the parish is administered by us, we notify the Guardian who then notifies the pastor. If the local parish is not administered by us, we notify the Guardian. He makes sure that everything is OK with the rule of St. Francis, Canon Law and diocesan law, if applicable. He then gives the permission or denies it. If it’s not a parish function, the pastor has not need to know about it. Just as pastors do not include religious who live in their boundaries in any parish function, unless the religious work for them. There is a reason for maintaining this distance. You don’t want to setup the pastor. The next thing he gets is “Why do the friars do X and the parish does not?” If he does not know and he has nothing to do with it, he can always answer, “Because I’m not a Franciscan.”

This is not so hard. You’re making this much harder than what any Franciscan would do. To us it’s so simple.

Step 1: Look back at tradtion

Step 2: Ask the Brother Guardian

Step 3: Go and do it or forget it, depending on Brother Guardian’s answer.

There can be a step 4. It looked like a good idea, but it did not work. Let’s not do this anymore.

By the way, he did not drop the Blessed Sacrament on the ground. He put down his bag. He was moving quickly, that’s all. Let’s not blow that out of proportion. I’m not even sure if he was moving so quickly or the film is moving quickly. It seemed that he did everything very quickly.
That simple.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
Why? We have never done that in 800 years. If the parish is administered by us, we notify the Guardian who then notifies the pastor. If the local parish is not administered by us, we notify the Guardian. He makes sure that everything is OK with the rule of St. Francis, Canon Law and diocesan law, if applicable. He then gives the permission or denies it. If it’s not a parish function, the pastor has not need to know about it. Just as pastors do not include religious who live in their boundaries in any parish function, unless the religious work for them. There is a reason for maintaining this distance. You don’t want to setup the pastor. The next thing he gets is “Why do the friars do X and the parish does not?” If he does not know and he has nothing to do with it, he can always answer, “Because I’m not a Franciscan.”

This is not so hard. You’re making this much harder than what any Franciscan would do. To us it’s so simple.

Step 1: Look back at tradtion

Step 2: Ask the Brother Guardian

Step 3: Go and do it or forget it, depending on Brother Guardian’s answer.

There can be a step 4. It looked like a good idea, but it did not work. Let’s not do this anymore.

By the way, he did not drop the Blessed Sacrament on the ground. He put down his bag. He was moving quickly, that’s all. Let’s not blow that out of proportion. I’m not even sure if he was moving so quickly or the film is moving quickly. It seemed that he did everything very quickly.
That simple.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Click to expand...
Brother, it has been called to my attention that I may not challenge your traditions. So are you willing to bring this argument to level ground and look at this view point not from the view of tradition?

If so, consider the answers to the following:-

Do you or do you not admit that if the Friar in the video had notified the parish community, there would be no negative effect in terms of what you saw in the video?

Do you or do you not admit that there is a possibility, upon seeing an unknown individual in a robe performing such an act, for the faithful to feel suspicion of whether it is indeed the Eucharist or just wafer, a priest/friar or just an impostor?

Do you or do you not admit that if the parish was notified, the faithful who are present at the event/moment will know with certainty that the person is a Friar and it is indeed the Eucharist?

Do you or do you not admit that, given parish notification, even if someone had confusion and asked, one of these town folk could assure the other with certainty that this is indeed genuine and not a wanna be impostor?

Finally,

Do you or do you not admit that NO Franciscan traditions and traditions of any order restrict Friars/Monks/Priests from notifying the Parish prior to holding an event such as these?

Given the above, is there really any reason, from tradition or otherwise, to pursue the course of actions that the Friar did in the video without notifying the faithful first?

Please, I would appreciate if you refrain from quoting St. Francis for me because the above are just question about yes or no and why the answers are psychologically and socially true. Otherwise I obviously can’t challenge your position and then this is not a discussion anymore.

God Bless 🙂
 
Preach the Gosple, if necessary, use words.

Now where have I heard that before? 😉

IMHO, I think the good friars were doing both in this case. Thank God for them!

Pax†
 
ddarko said:
Brother, it has been called to my attention that I may not challenge your traditions. So are you willing to bring this argument to level ground and look at this view point not from the view of tradition?

If so, consider the answers to the following:-

Do you or do you not admit that if the Friar in the video had notified the parish community, there would be no negative effect in terms of what you saw in the video?
Click to expand...
There is no negative effect. However, that is not the way things work. We don’t notify pastors of the local parishes. We have no obligation to do so.
Do you or do you not admit that there is a possibility, upon seeing an unknown individual in a robe performing such an act, for the faithful to feel suspicion of whether it is indeed the Eucharist or just wafer, a priest/friar or just an impostor?
Click to expand...
There is always that possibility. That’s a risk that the individual Guardian takes when he grants the permission.
Do you or do you not admit that if the parish was notified, the faithful who are present at the event/moment will know with certainty that the person is a Friar and it is indeed the Eucharist?
Click to expand...
Again, the faithful of the parish do not have a right to be invited to a function by a independent religious community. If they come, they are welcome. If they can answer questions, they are appreciated. But this is not a valid reason to invite them. Unless the religious community is assigned to the parish, the people of that parish are not the obligation of the community. The community’s obligation depends on the reason for existence of their particular house. We don’t know if these friars came from a parish or an independent friary. The video does not tell us this.
Do you or do you not admit that, give parish notification, even if someone had confusion and asked, one of these town folk could assure the other with certainty that this is indeed genuine and not a wanna be impostor?
Click to expand...
Why would we want to give the parish notification about something that has nothing to do with the parish? Why would we do something that we have never done before, giving notice to a parish about something where the pastor has no jurisdiction? If the friar were to celebrate mass, hear confessions, baptize, witness a wedding or bury the dead, he has to notify the pastor before doing so. Other than that, we have never notified pastors of our coming and going. The point that you need to understand is that you’re asking these men to do something that they don’t do. On the other side of that coin, we would be asking the parish to publish and encourage people to attend a function that is not a parish or diocesan event. Unless the orders come from the bishop, the parish has no obligation to make it known to its people, because it’s not a parish event.

I won’t quote St. Francis, but I will say this. This is not a catastrophe. No laws were violated. The friars presented the Eucharist with great reverence. I even went back to the video to check your statement and the friar did not throw or drop the bag. He clearly bends over as he’s placing the bag on the ground to get his stole and the monstrance. Even that was done very appropriately. If you listened to the background, there is no heckling, no offensive comments being made. Other than the people who are on their knees in adoration, there are some faces that are in shock and others that are not too sure what this is about. Given the spiritual condition of the UK and the USA, bewilderment is quite understandable.

Assuming that the friars are not part of a parish, I’m a littled confused as to why you would want them to work in tandem with a parish when religious orders have never worked in tandem with parishes, unless they run them or they are assigned to them, such as those assigned to teach at a parish school. 🤷

Why change the custom?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
There is no negative effect. However, that is not the way things work. We don’t notify pastors of the local parishes. We have no obligation to do so.

There is always that possibility. That’s a risk that the individual Guardian takes when he grants the permission.

Again, the faithful of the parish do not have a right to be invited to a function by a independent religious community. If they come, they are welcome. If they can answer questions, they are appreciated. But this is not a valid reason to invite them. Unless the religious community is assigned to the parish, the people of that parish are not the obligation of the community. The community’s obligation depends on the reason for existence of their particular house. We don’t know if these friars came from a parish or an independent friary. The video does not tell us this.

Why would we want to give the parish notification about something that has nothing to do with the parish? Why would we do something that we have never done before, giving notice to a parish about something where the pastor has no jurisdiction? If the friar were to celebrate mass, hear confessions, baptize, witness a wedding or bury the dead, he has to notify the pastor before doing so. Other than that, we have never notified pastors of our coming and going. The point that you need to understand is that you’re asking these men to do something that they don’t do. On the other side of that coin, we would be asking the parish to publish and encourage people to attend a function that is not a parish or diocesan event. Unless the orders come from the bishop, the parish has no obligation to make it known to its people, because it’s not a parish event.

I won’t quote St. Francis, but I will say this. This is not a catastrophe. No laws were violated. The friars presented the Eucharist with great reverence. I even went back to the video to check your statement and the friar did not throw or drop the bag. He clearly bends over as he’s placing the bag on the ground to get his stole and the monstrance. Even that was done very appropriately. If you listened to the background, there is no heckling, no offensive comments being made. Other than the people who are on their knees in adoration, there are some faces that are in shock and others that are not too sure what this is about. Given the spiritual condition of the UK and the USA, bewilderment is quite understandable.

Assuming that the friars are not part of a parish, I’m a littled confused as to why you would want them to work in tandem with a parish when religious orders have never worked in tandem with parishes, unless they run them or they are assigned to them, such as those assigned to teach at a parish school. 🤷

Why change the custom?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Click to expand...
Brother,

With all due respect, can you answer the question without telling me “this is what Franciscans do”, “these are the rights of the faithful” etc? I can’t really argue with you if you go straight down to tradition. I’d like to keep this discussion general.

To the list of questions I asked on whether it is negative etc, you just replied saying “this is what we did for 800 years”. That really doesn’t say much right? I could just turn around and ask, if this has been happening for 800 years, how did we arrive in this state of affairs that we are experiencing today?

So I was asking from a psychological and societal perspective.

While you have no obligation to inform the parish according to your tradition, which dates back to a time where it made total sense why it was the case. This really does not seem to apply anymore. Since you have NO obligation NOT TO INFORM the parish either, then you must entertain the possibility of doing so after weighing the options.

Basically what I am objecting here is your use of tradition to defend your position here. I do not think it has anything to do with tradition.

The Franciscan tradition does not impose any obligation to inform the parish just as much as it does not impose any obligation NOT TO inform the parish.

Thus I think common sense maybe used to determine the best course of action here without resolving to tradition.

God Bless 🙂
 
ddarko said:
Thus I think common sense maybe used to determine the best course of action here without resolving to tradition.

God Bless 🙂
Click to expand...
“Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around.”
G.K. Chesterton "

“Indeed, the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries, nor innovators: they are traditionalists.”
Pope St. Pius X, Notre Charge Apostolique

“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”
St. Athanasius, AD 373

And your arguments remind me of this

"A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken him?”
Pope Pius XII

(Waiting for you to say "I know where they took Him ! To some random spot in town !)
😛
 
At_Trent said:
“Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around.”
G.K. Chesterton "

“Indeed, the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries, nor innovators: they are traditionalists.”
Pope St. Pius X, Notre Charge Apostolique

“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”
St. Athanasius, AD 373

And your arguments remind me of this

"A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken him?”
Pope Pius XII
Click to expand...
I think you are a bit confused here. I am talking about “tradition” with a simple ‘t’. Not Tradition with a capital ‘T’.

There is a difference. tradition can change. Tradition does not change.

In any case, my point to the brother was that there was no traditional regulations preventing him from notifying the parish and faithful about such an event. In that scenario, common sense can take over.

God Bless 🙂
 
ddarko said:
In any case, my point to the brother was that there was no traditional regulations preventing him from notifying the parish and faithful about such an event. In that scenario, common sense can take over.

God Bless 🙂
Click to expand...
Nor are there an regulations requiring it. 🙂

Are you a convert ?
 
At_Trent said:
Nor are there an regulations requiring it. 🙂

Are you a convert ?
Click to expand...
No, I am not a convert.

And I am really not sure whether to take you seriously anymore. First you try to say that this is not random. Then you try to say it is random but it is Tradition. Now you are trying to say there is no regulation requiring it.

Sure, that’s my point also. There is no regulation neither requiring it or condemning it. Therefore one has to use common sense to take the best cause of action.

There is no regulations in the church against building a nuclear plant next to a home. But there is no regulation TO build a nuclear plant next to a home. In that event, one uses the common sense.

Please try to understand. Stop looking at me like I am your enemy or something. Then try to neutrally look at the issue. It should be pretty clear that having the event after notifying the faithful far outweighs randomly holding events. As the brother himself admitted, there is no negative effect in notifying the faithful. There are only things to be gained. That video would look just as beautiful or even more if the faithful were notified.

God Bless 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top