Interesting Joseph Smith Quotes

[AtticusFinch]

"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).

". . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . " (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394).

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens…I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form – like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man…it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see…and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).

 

[dnu]

He said a lot of interesting things, didn’t he?

 

[AtticusFinch]

He said a lot of interesting things, didn’t he?

Yes. Like the part about people living on moon dressed like Quakers

 

[dnu]

Yes. Like the part about people living on moon dressed like Quakers

:clapping::clapping:

I forgot about that one!! :bowdown2:

 

[MelanieAnne]

Interesting quotes but from what I’ve seen lately these sorts of quotes are being suppressed by the current Mormon church. Or, at the very least, after teaching these things as “doctrine” for decades, these things are now described as opinions and not doctrine.

Handy to be able to discard doctrine when it becomes inconvenient, huh?

 

[Answersplease]

i4m.com/think/history/sell_BOM_copyright.htm

(Red color and underlining added to highlight the original text.)

…
"Joseph looked into the hat in which he placed the stone, and received a revelation that some of the brethren should go to Toronto, Canada, and that they would sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon. Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery went to Toronto on this mission, but they failed entirely to sell the copyright, returning without any money.
…
Joseph…enquired of the Lord about it, and behold the following revelation came through the stone: “Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil.”

…
…

• David Witmer, AN ADDRESS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN CHRIST, 1887

…
Handy to be able to discard doctrine when it becomes inconvenient, huh?

 

[Dokimas]

:clapping::clapping:

I forgot about that one!! :bowdown2:

No offense intended but are you sure false teaching and the belief of false teaching is a laughing matter?

 

[lax16]

"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had.** I am the only man that ****has ever been able to keep a whole church together ****since the days of **Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, **nor Jesus **ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).

Have there ever been any prophets in the Old or New Testaments to make similar claims?
Were there any other “church leaders” to make similar claims?

". . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that **in a few years **the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . " (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394).

Isn’t that a prophesy that did not come true since Joseph Smith himself gave a time limit?

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens…I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form – like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man…it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. **We have imagined and supposed that **God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see…and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).

Definitely not the God of the Hebrew Bible, therefore Mormonism is not a fulfillment of the promises of Judaism. So how can JS be like prophets of the OT? Did any prophets from the OT ever make these claims about God having a body? No.

 

[lax16]

Yes. Like the part about people living on moon dressed like Quakers

He said that? Then isn’t that another one of his prophecies that didn’t come true?
It has been asked why Joseph Smith/Mormons are given a time line for their prophecies to come true.
Well, we have pictures of what the moon looks like and astronauts have not reported any people living on the moon dressed like Quakers, so wouldn’t that mean this prophecy didn’t come true?
Do Mormons believe it could possibly come true in the future?

 

[MelanieAnne]

He said that? Then isn’t that another one of his prophecies that didn’t come true?
It has been asked why Joseph Smith/Mormons are given a time line for their prophecies to come true.
Well, we have pictures of what the moon looks like and astronauts have not reported any people living on the moon dressed like Quakers, so wouldn’t that mean this prophecy didn’t come true?
Do Mormons believe it could possibly come true in the future?

The Quakers I know dress just like everyone else.

But to address your question seriously, from what I have seen Mormons are now moving away from many of the more unusual prophecies of Joseph Smith and labeling them as non-doctrinal opinions. So no, it is not likely that they are waiting for this prophecy to be fulfilled. It’s much easier to reframe what was once considered a prophecy and call it something else.

 

[lax16]

The Quakers I know dress just like everyone else.

But to address your question seriously, from what I have seen Mormons are now moving away from many of the more unusual prophecies of Joseph Smith and labeling them as non-doctrinal opinions. So no, it is not likely that they are waiting for this prophecy to be fulfilled. It’s much easier to reframe what was once considered a prophecy and call it something else.

Good point. Yesterday I quoted Deut 21-22:

If you say to yourselves, ‘How can we recognize an oracle which the Lord has spoken?’ know that, even though a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, **if his oracle is not **fulfilled or verfied, it is an oracle which the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously, and you shall have no fear of him.

I asked if, based on this quote, Joseph Smith would be considered a prophet or not.
Two things were mentioned in reply that I remember (the thread has been pulled):

1. Prophets of the OT said things that did not come true
2. Why do Mormons/Joseph Smith have a timeline for the prophecies to come true imposed upon them when OT prophets do not?

Based on this scriptual quote, one asks if Joseph Smith fits the definition of a prophet?
Do his words stand on their own no matter what anyone says about them now?

 

[MelanieAnne]

Good point. Yesterday I quoted Deut 21-22:

If you say to yourselves, ‘How can we recognize an oracle which the Lord has spoken?’ know that, even though a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, **if his oracle is not **fulfilled or verfied, it is an oracle which the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously, and you shall have no fear of him.

I asked if, based on this quote, Joseph Smith would be considered a prophet or not.
Two things were mentioned in reply that I remember (the thread has been pulled):

1. Prophets of the OT said things that did not come true
2. Why do Mormons/Joseph Smith have a timeline for the prophecies to come true imposed upon them when OT prophets do not?

Based on this scriptual quote, one asks if Joseph Smith fits the definition of a prophet?
Do his words stand on their own no matter what anyone says about them now?

I’m not enough of an OT expert to be able to list all the OT prophecies, much less identify which ones were fulfilled and which ones were not, but I would think it is simply logical that #2 does not come into play once it is determined that some Joseph Smith prophecy will never be fulfilled. And “people living on the Moon dressed like Quakers” is an example of one that will never be fulfilled.

You’ve hit on an interesting point. It may very well be that Mormon hierarchy has adopted this new practice, taking things previously accepted as “prophecy” and “doctrine” and now labeling them “opinion” because modern scholarship and reality have served to make them untenable as anything but opinion. In so doing, they get to preserve JS’s “prophet” status for those things that cannot be disproved (at least not YET) while distancing themselves from “prophecies” that may appear nutty, if not downright false, to those living in a more modern time.

 

[lax16]

I’m not enough of an OT expert to be able to list all the OT prophecies, much less identify which ones were fulfilled and which ones were not, but I would think it is simply logical that #2 does not come into play once it is determined that some Joseph Smith prophecy will never be fulfilled. And “people living on the Moon dressed like Quakers” is an example of one that will never be fulfilled.

You’ve hit on an interesting point. It may very well be that Mormon hierarchy has adopted this new practice, **taking things previously accepted as “prophecy” and “doctrine” and **now labeling them "opinion" because modern scholarship and reality have served to make them untenable as anything but opinion. In so doing, **they get to preserve JS’s “prophet” ****status for those things that cannot be disproved **(at least not YET) while distancing themselves from “prophecies” that may appear nutty, if not downright false, to those living in a more modern time.

I am definitely not an expert either and it is actually pretty difficult to get information on these type of questions. I wish I had access to an Orthodox Rabbi!

Yes, I think you are right that changing JS prophecies to opinions may be the direction Mormons are going. Joseph Smith is called Prophet/Seer/Revelator. It is hard to compare him to prophets from the OT because 1. those prophets are from 1800 years ago and 2. Would a prophet from the 1800’s in America be held to the same standard?

According to Judaism 101, there are 55 Prophets of Israel in the Jewish Scriptures.

And this is interesting: “The greatest of the prophets was Moses. It is said that Moses saw all that all of the other prophets combined saw, and more. Moses saw the whole of the Torah, including the Prophets and the Writings that were written hundreds of years later. All subsequent prophecy was merely an expression of what Moses had already seen. Thus, it is taught that nothing in the Prophets or the Writings can be in conflict with Moses’ writings, because Moses saw it all in advance.”

So, based on this, nobody can be considered a prophet if their teachings conflict with those of Moses.
So then this is also a “definition” of a prophet.
Were there any teachings of Joseph Smith that conflict with those of Moses? How about New Testament prophets?

 

[dianaiad]

He said that? Then isn’t that another one of his prophecies that didn’t come true?

Actually, he didn’t say that. Or rather, we don’t know if he said that. What we have on that is the recollection of a man writing this stuff down fifty years later—recounting a blessing that he claims he recieved at the age of ten from Joseph Smith’s father, when in reality he got that blessing from his OWN father. We have no direct quotes from Joseph Smith on this issue, and nothing from anybody who was writing down what he said at the time he was claimed to have said it.

So…it’s a very thin thread to base a “HE DID TOO SAY THAT!!” on. I can imagine the sort of disdain that would be earned by someone who made a similar claim about a pope, for instance…fifty years after the fact, by a man remembering, faultily, an incident that happened when he was ten? C’mon.

However, even if JS were quoted exactly, it was certainly not a prophecy.

It has been asked why Joseph Smith/Mormons are given a time line for their prophecies to come true.
Well, we have pictures of what the moon looks like and astronauts have not reported any people living on the moon dressed like Quakers, so wouldn’t that mean this prophecy didn’t come true?
Do Mormons believe it could possibly come true in the future?

Well, if you CALL it a prophecy, which you can’t…then I suppose that we could call it fulfilled, if you put Quakers in spacesuits.

 

[dianaiad]

The Quakers I know dress just like everyone else.

But to address your question seriously, from what I have seen Mormons are now moving away from many of the more unusual prophecies of Joseph Smith and labeling them as non-doctrinal opinions. So no, it is not likely that they are waiting for this prophecy to be fulfilled. It’s much easier to reframe what was once considered a prophecy and call it something else.

And it is much easier for the critics to declare as prophecy things which never were
for the express purposes of claiming that they did not ‘come true.’

 

[dianaiad]

I’m not enough of an OT expert to be able to list all the OT prophecies, much less identify which ones were fulfilled and which ones were not, but I would think it is simply logical that #2 does not come into play once it is determined that some Joseph Smith prophecy will never be fulfilled. And “people living on the Moon dressed like Quakers” is an example of one that will never be fulfilled.

Now all you have to do is prove that A; Joseph Smith actually claimed this, and that B: is was intended as a prophecy.

…personally, though, I imagine that we WILL have a colony or base on the moon someday, if Obama (or someone else with a better grasp on priorities) will get his head out of his…never mind.

You’ve hit on an interesting point. It may very well be that Mormon hierarchy has adopted this new practice, taking things previously accepted as “prophecy” and “doctrine” and now labeling them “opinion” because modern scholarship and reality have served to make them untenable as anything but opinion. In so doing, they get to preserve JS’s “prophet” status for those things that cannot be disproved (at least not YET) while distancing themselves from “prophecies” that may appear nutty, if not downright false, to those living in a more modern time.

(sigh)

Have it your way. The straw castle is over there.

 

[Loboto-Me]

"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).

It’s a good thing I’m not God and that our God is a loving and merciful God because had I been God I’d have struck Joseph Smith dead at this comment. What a boastful, prideful man! Where’s my lightning rod??

Wow, this statement really got under my skin.

 

[lax16]

Actually, he didn’t say that. Or rather, we don’t know if he said that. What we have on that is the recollection of a man writing this stuff down fifty years later—recounting a blessing that he claims he recieved at the age of ten from Joseph Smith’s father, when in reality he got that blessing from his OWN father. We have no direct quotes from Joseph Smith on this issue, and nothing from anybody who was writing down what he said at the time he was claimed to have said it.

So…it’s a very thin thread to base a “HE DID TOO SAY THAT!!” on. I can imagine the sort of disdain that would be earned by someone who made a similar claim about a pope, for instance…fifty years after the fact, by a man remembering, faultily, an incident that happened when he was ten? C’mon.

However, even if JS were quoted exactly, it was certainly not a prophecy.

People can say things about a Pope, but they are not prophets. If they claimed to be a prophet I can assure every word would be written down accurately and any claims of something said 50 years later would be checked against written record. And certainly their prophecies would be scrutinized and followed up on.

By claiming he is/was a prophet/revelator/seer puts all eyes on the Mormon church to show proof that he was. It would be true of anyone who claims to be a prophet - there has to be a way to check if this person is truly the mouthpiece of God.

Well, if you CALL it a prophecy, which you can’t…then I suppose that we could call it fulfilled, if you put Quakers in spacesuits.

What do Mormons think is a fair way to test a person’s claim at being a prophet?
Is it possible there will be more prophets in the future?

 

[why_me]

Mormons have very little of what Joseph Smith actually said. Most of what they have come from other people’s notes about what Joseph said. This creates a problem. The mormon church began to collect notes years ago and put them together in book form. I have two of the books: The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and The Words of the Prophet Joseph Smith. And then, there are the histories written not by Joseph Smith but by other people. And so, we have a problem.

Let me put it this way: if catholics only have notes about what a pope said based on people taking notes of what the pope said, would you trust those notes if they could not be confirmed? Probably not. The lds church was not shy to include the notes regardless of what the notes said. But at the time, people knew that it was what Joseph Smith purportedly said.

And that makes all the difference. Now this has been brought up on this forum many times but it doesn’t seem to sink in with the catholics. Of course, I understand why. Much better to ignore the second hand notetaking and go with Hey look at what Joseph Smith said! with a laugh and a mock.

 

[why_me]

Interesting quotes but from what I’ve seen lately these sorts of quotes are being suppressed by the current Mormon church. Or, at the very least, after teaching these things as “doctrine” for decades, these things are now described as opinions and not doctrine.

Handy to be able to discard doctrine when it becomes inconvenient, huh?

This is not quite true. Mormons have known that what we have of Joseph Smith is second hand accounts of what he said. But still, the mormon church published these notes from others as if they were actually said by Joseph. Of course, the reference from where these words came from and from whom where in the references.

Hard to make doctrine from second hand notes…