Interesting Joseph Smith Quotes

[why_me]

It’s a good thing I’m not God and that our God is a loving and merciful God because had I been God I’d have struck Joseph Smith dead at this comment. What a boastful, prideful man! Where’s my lightning rod??

Wow, this statement really got under my skin.

Now of course, these words by joseph have been brought up many times on this forum and the mormons have answered these words of boasting. But…it just doesn’t sink in to the catholics on this forum and in a way it is quite dishonest to bring up these words over and over again ignoring the context and the mormon response in the past. Ol’ atticus knows this quite well. First, these words were from someone’s notes of what Joseph said. Second, the context comes from first Cor. where Paul is also boasting. Joseph was taking his talk from that section of the new testament.

The OP knows this quite well but ignores it because he does not wish to have a good discussion of context but rather wants to use shock value to fit his new world view. Sad really because this quotation is an old favorite on this forum and has been answered countless of times on the mormon threads when they have come up.

 

[why_me]

He said that? Then isn’t that another one of his prophecies that didn’t come true?
It has been asked why Joseph Smith/Mormons are given a time line for their prophecies to come true.
Well, we have pictures of what the moon looks like and astronauts have not reported any people living on the moon dressed like Quakers, so wouldn’t that mean this prophecy didn’t come true?
Do Mormons believe it could possibly come true in the future?

This quotation had its own thread by answersplease and a discussion followed. Now of course that thread has been forgotten as have the mormon responses. I have said it before that the mormons are wasting their time on the mormon threads because the catholics are not listening to their responses. The antimormon catholics keep bringing up the same old same old in hope of getting the response that they desire. But they also ignore the previous mormon responses. It is a little sad and dishonest to totally ignore the past discussion. But what can one expect on a catholic forum where antimormon catholics have an agenda.

Anyway, here is the mormon apologetic response to the quotation. At the moment I can not access the webpages and so, I am pasting where they can be found:

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Moon_inhabited

en.fairmormon.org/Questions_All_Mormons_Should_Ask_Themselves/Pages_2

Both sites are at this moment experiencing technical difficulties but I hope that they can be accessible in the near future.

 

[adstrinity]

I thank the Mormons for answering. It makes a difference when it’s put into perspective.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Now of course, these words by joseph have been brought up many times on this forum and the mormons have answered these words of boasting. But…it just doesn’t sink in to the catholics on this forum and in a way it is quite dishonest to bring up these words over and over again ignoring the context and the mormon response in the past. Ol’ atticus knows this quite well. First, these words were from someone’s notes of what Joseph said. Second, the context comes from first Cor. where Paul is also boasting. Joseph was taking his talk from that section of the new testament.

The OP knows this quite well but ignores it because he does not wish to have a good discussion of context but rather wants to use shock value to fit his new world view. Sad really because this quotation is an old favorite on this forum and has been answered countless of times on the mormon threads when they have come up.

Hmm, I don’t recall Paul boasting about being better and smarter than Jesus… because Jesus can’t even keep His Church on earth like he promised…where’s that in the bible?

 

[why_me]

I thank the Mormons for answering. It makes a difference when it’s put into perspective.

yes, it does. People these days have a memory of fifteen minutes. It does make it tough but one just needs to accept it. It does make it interesting to be on the forum with thousands of posts defending the lds church. I have seen the same quotations come and go many times posted by antimormon catholics, and never with any of the previous mormon responses included when a new thread is opened with the same old quotations from Brigham Young or Joseph Smith.

 

[why_me]

Hmm, I don’t recall Paul boasting about being better and smarter than Jesus… because Jesus can’t even keep His Church on earth like he promised…where’s that in the bible?

Well, that was the context of the talk. And like I said, we do not have Joseph’s exact words but notes from a notetaker.

But here is the mormon apologist response:

en.fairmormon.org/Search_for_the_Truth_DVD/Distorted_quotes

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Narcissism/Did_Joseph_Smith_%27boast%27_of_keeping_the_Church_intact

The site is experiencing techical difficulties at the moment but hopefully, it will be back to normal soon.

 

[AtticusFinch]

Actually, he didn’t say that. Or rather, we don’t know if he said that.

Actually, we know he said that. We have the word of a Mormon. here is the site: This is the exact (though not complete) text of an article in “The Young Woman’s Journal”, an LDS magazine of the 1890s. The article is dated “Feb 6, 1892”.

I present it without comment, but you might safely predict my feelings, as an ex-mormon, towards this article, and its implications.

"Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a Prophet.

As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do - that they live generally to near the age of a 1000 years.

He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.

Now, the person who said this heard if from Joseph. If you have something to refute him, feel free to post it.

What we have on that is the recollection of a man writing this stuff down fifty years later—recounting a blessing that he claims he recieved at the age of ten from Joseph Smith’s father, when in reality he got that blessing from his OWN father. We have no direct quotes from Joseph Smith on this issue, and nothing from anybody who was writing down what he said at the time he was claimed to have said it.

Could you explain why, when people make claims positive about Joseph, you are so willing to accept them, but when something like this comes up, you are so quick to dismiss it? Why would this person lie? He heard Joseph say it. He reported it.

However, even if JS were quoted exactly, it was certainly not a prophecy.

No, it would have been a comment by an alleged prophet who allegedly talked to God. So, perhaps it was a revelation, as it revealed something about the moon

Well, if you CALL it a prophecy, which you can’t…then I suppose that we could call it fulfilled, if you put Quakers in spacesuits.

No, because in spacesuits, they would not be dressed like quakers and like would be as tall.

 

[AtticusFinch]

Now all you have to do is prove that A; Joseph Smith actually claimed this, and that B: is was intended as a prophecy.

…personally, though, I imagine that we WILL have a colony or base on the moon someday, if Obama (or someone else with a better grasp on priorities) will get his head out of his…never mind.

(sigh)

Have it your way. The straw castle is over there.

ok, there was a prophesy, and I wish I could remember what D&C Section it was, where Joseph said a man was going to go on a mission very soon to teach the world and then the guy died. Now, either God had no clue the guy was going to die, or Joseph was not really getting revelations from God. Which do you believe it was?

 

[AtticusFinch]

Mormons have very little of what Joseph Smith actually said. Most of what they have come from other people’s notes about what Joseph said. This creates a problem.

Not really. Notes people took of what He said are actually pretty good evidence, especially if they were taken near the time Joseph said them. They fall under “present sense impressions”. It is really only a problem for Joseph who said a lot of things that have come back to haunt him.

The mormon church began to collect notes years ago and put them together in book form. I have two of the books: The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and The Words of the Prophet Joseph Smith. And then, there are the histories written not by Joseph Smith but by other people. And so, we have a problem.

The Church only took the good stuff and left out the bad stuff. Luckily, we have the bad stuff, too.

Let me put it this way: if catholics only have notes about what a pope said based on people taking notes of what the pope said, would you trust those notes if they could not be confirmed?

We have a lot of stuff like that from a long time ago.

Probably not. The lds church was not shy to include the notes regardless of what the notes said. But at the time, people knew that it was what Joseph Smith purportedly said.

No, the Church took the good things people said he said and rejected the bad things people said he said.

 

[lax16]

This quotation had its own thread by answersplease and a discussion followed. **Now of course that thread has been forgotten **as have the mormon responses. I have said it before that the mormons are wasting their time on the mormon threads because the catholics are not listening to their responses. The antimormon catholics keep bringing up the same old same old in hope of getting the response that they desire. But they also ignore the previous mormon responses. It is a little **sad and dishonest **to totally ignore the past discussion. But what can one expect on a catholic forum where antimormon catholics have an agenda.

Anyway, here is the mormon apologetic response to the quotation. At the moment I can not access the webpages and so, I am pasting where they can be found:

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Moon_inhabited

en.fairmormon.org/Questions_All_Mormons_Should_Ask_Themselves/Pages_2

Both sites are at this moment experiencing technical difficulties but I hope that they can be accessible in the near future.

whyme - You are saying that I, and other posters on this thread, have participated in discussions **on this subject **in the past and are:

ignoring
not listening
not remembering
being dishonest

You are correct in saying that I am not remembering, because I do not ever remembering participating in a thread with this topic.

Is it possible there are new posters on this thread who have not discussed this topic before?

Honestly, many things could be said about people re-hashing the same old arguments. Was it you or Parker (sometimes I can’t tell you two apart!), that loves to discuss Adam and Eve and the keys of David. I have read the same argument over and over, but that is because new discussions have a way of branching off here and there. I wouldn’t take it personally.

I think Mormons have to expect to answer lots of questions regarding Joseph Smith because he claims to be a modern day prophet who provided another testament of Jesus Christ. That is going to require a lot of explanation to a lot of people.

Besides he really provided a lot to talk about!!!

 

[tundramom]

So…it’s a very thin thread to base a “HE DID TOO SAY THAT!!” on. I can imagine the sort of disdain that would be earned by someone who made a similar claim about a pope, for instance…fifty years after the fact, by a man remembering, faultily, an incident that happened when he was ten? C’mon.

Dianiad,
We do accept the words of those who wrote the facts and claim that someone said something. The Gospels were written after Jesus said those words… years afterwards. Yet we DO accept them without disdain. Sometimes they’re even in red letters.

Steph

 

[tundramom]

Seriously… second hand notes? C’mon! Jesus himself didn’t write down anything, yet we take what He said as scripture because there were those who DID take notes…er…second-handedly?

This is an absurd argument. I trust completely that what the writers of the gospels put down as words that Jesus spoke were… words that Jesus actually spoke!

So, if the words of Joseph Smith were important enough for people to listen to, then why wouldn’t they be accurate? Those people put their very lives on the line in following Joseph Smith. I would be willing to bet they wanted to make sure that what he said was exactly what they heard. Many left family, homes, and security to follow him. I would want to make sure that I knew why had I been there.

Steph

 

[lax16]

Seriously… second hand notes? C’mon! Jesus himself didn’t write down anything, yet we take what He said as scripture because there were those who DID take notes…er…second-handedly?

This is an absurd argument. I trust completely that what **the writers of the gospels put ****down as words that Jesus spoke **were… words that Jesus actually spoke!

So, if **the words of Joseph Smith **were important enough for people to listen to, **then why **wouldn’t they be accurate? Those people put their very lives on the line in following Joseph Smith. I would be willing to bet they wanted to make sure that what he said was exactly what they heard. Many left family, homes, and security to follow him. I would want to make sure that I knew why had I been there.

Steph

Divine inspiration vs. ?

 

[tundramom]

Divine inspiration vs. ?

Bingo lax.

 

[dianaiad]

Dianiad,
We do accept the words of those who wrote the facts and claim that someone said something. The Gospels were written after Jesus said those words… years afterwards. Yet we DO accept them without disdain. Sometimes they’re even in red letters.

Steph

Yes indeed, by several men who were fully adult at the time that Jesus spoke, who recieved revelation from the Man of Whom they spoke, and their accounts (mostly) agreed one with another.

I notice, however, that the Catholics who put the bible together had OTHER ‘gospels’ around that they did not include in the collection called ‘scripture,’ because there were problems with the narrative…and those people were, ostensibly, witnesses of Christ’s life as well.

And NONE of them were ten year olds attempting to remember an off hand remark made at a single event–the details of which he got WRONG in other ways.

To compare the two—my, my…and you guys think WE think too much of Joseph Smith!

 

[dianaiad]

Divine inspiration vs. ?

Precisely. Divine inspiration vs. the faulty memory of an old man attempting to remember an incident that happened when he was ten.

You guys have to figure out which side of the fence you are going to come down on with this one, y’know. WE certainly do not claim divine inspiration for this gentleman who recounts what he thinks were Joseph’s words (when he didn’t even remember that his own father gave him the blessing he attributed to Joseph’s father).

Yet you seem to be insisting upon it. Doesn’t it seem odd that you are placing this account on the same level as those of the NT gospels? It seems really odd to me.

Of course, you HAVE to in order to make the proper hay out of it, because ascribing some sort of divine revelation to it is the only way you can reasonably keep claiming that Joseph Smith really, truely, is proven to have made that claim precisely the way you want him to have made it. Admitting the the source is dicey takes all the pepper out of the ammunition for you, doesn’t it?

 

[lax16]

Precisely. Divine inspiration vs. the faulty memory of an old man attempting to remember an incident that happened when he was ten.

You guys have to figure out which side of the fence you are going to come down on with this one, y’know. WE certainly do not claim divine inspiration for this gentleman who recounts what he thinks were Joseph’s words (when he didn’t even remember that his own father gave him the blessing he attributed to Joseph’s father).

Yet you seem to be insisting upon it. Doesn’t it seem odd that you are placing this account on the same level as those of the NT gospels? It seems really odd to me.

Of course, you HAVE to in order to make the proper hay out of it, because ascribing some sort of divine revelation to it is the only way you can reasonably keep claiming that Joseph Smith really, truely, is proven to have made that claim precisely the way you want him to have made it. Admitting the the source is dicey takes all the pepper out of the ammunition for you, doesn’t it?

No Diana - you can’t have it both ways.

Either JS is/was a prophet and he is responsible for all of his actions and his words and his church members are responsible for making sure it is all handled properly or… not.

The Jews do it with Moses.

The Christians do it with Jesus.

And Joseph Smith lived only how many years ago???

 

[campeador]

Here’s an interesting quote from Joseph Smith—History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, page 465-66:

Revelation given in Salem, Massachusetts, August 6th, 1836.

1. I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies;

1. I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion; and many people in this city whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality.

1. Therefore it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with men in this city, as you shall be led, and as it shall be given you;

1. And it shall come to pass in due time, that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.

1. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them.

1. Concern not yourselves about Zion for I will deal mercifully with her.

1. Tarry in this place, and in the regions round about;

1. And the place where it is my will that you should tarry, for the main, shall be signalized unto you by the peace and power of my Spirit, that shall flow unto you.

1. This place you may obtain by hire, etc. And inquire diligently concerning the more ancient inhabitants and founders of this city;

1. For there are more treasures than one for you in this city;

1. Therefore be ye as wise as serpents and yet without sin, and I will order all things for your good, as fast as ye are able to receive them. Amen.

Maybe, given enough time this prophesy it will come true?

 

[why_me]

Here’s an interesting quote from Joseph Smith—History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, page 465-66:

Maybe, given enough time this prophesy it will come true?

Here is the context and the background:

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Money_digging/%22Treasure_hunting%22_trip_to_Salem

** Fulfillment of the revelation

It became evident to the leaders of the Church that the “treasure” referred to by the Lord was the conversion of people in Salem to the Gospel. In 1841, five years after the revelation was given, Erastus Snow and Benjamin Winchester were called to serve a mission in Salem. Cannon notes that the elders were sent explicitly for the purpose of fulfilling the revelation:

[Hyrum Smith and William Law] gave Erastus Snow a copy of the Salem Revelation and requested to fulfill it. Snow and Winchester arrived in Salem in September of 1841. They preached at public meetings, published a pamphlet addressed to the citizens of Salem, and challenged the notorious Mormon apostate, John C. Bennett to debate. Their efforts bore fruit. By March of 1842 they had organized the Salem Branch with 53 members. By the end of that summer, the branch had 90 members. [6]

These conversions were sufficiently noticed to have been commented on by two of Salem’s newspapers, the Salem Gazette on Dec. 7, 1841, and The Salem Register on June 2, 1842. **

The revelation came to pass.

Any problems?

 

[why_me]

whyme - You are saying that I, and other posters on this thread, have participated in discussions **on this subject **in the past and are:

ignoring
not listening
not remembering
being dishonest

You are correct in saying that I am not remembering, because I do not ever remembering participating in a thread with this topic.

Is it possible there are new posters on this thread who have not discussed this topic before?

Honestly, many things could be said about people re-hashing the same old arguments. Was it you or Parker (sometimes I can’t tell you two apart!), that loves to discuss Adam and Eve and the keys of David. I have read the same argument over and over, but that is because new discussions have a way of branching off here and there. I wouldn’t take it personally.

I think Mormons have to expect to answer lots of questions regarding Joseph Smith because he claims to be a modern day prophet who provided another testament of Jesus Christ. That is going to require a lot of explanation to a lot of people.

Besides he really provided a lot to talk about!!!

The posters who post the quotations have seen the mormon responses and also know the mormon responses. It matters not if there are new members on the forum. The people posting the quotations are well aware of the mormon responses. But they post the quotations anyway. I have seen the boasting quotation many times and the others too. And if I remember correctly answersplease posted the quaker quote not that long ago.

The can be no excuse for the hardcore antimormon catholic posters on this forum for posting such quotations for shock and awe when these quotations have been answered over and over again by the mormons who come on the forum.