Interesting Joseph Smith Quotes

[why_me]

Dianiad,
We do accept the words of those who wrote the facts and claim that someone said something. The Gospels were written after Jesus said those words… years afterwards. Yet we DO accept them without disdain. Sometimes they’re even in red letters.

Steph

There is a difference. The gospels were most likely edited by the people who wrote them. I am sure that it took more than one draft to write each gospel. And yes, they were taken from memory. But what we have with the words of Joseph Smith are notes taken by men as Joseph said what he said or after the fact. Sad, but true. And human beings are short on memory. Now I am hoping that with the publications of the Joseph Smith Papers we will have more writings by Joseph Smith himself. But I am not counting on it.

The problem was with Joseph Smith. To my knowledge he hated writing. In fact, he had his secretary write his journal for him. And this also creates problems. Joseph Smith was speaking for his here and now and not for the internet two hundred years later. He hated writing but he did love to talk. And so, we have mainly second hand accounts by ‘trusted’ notetakers (many people were taken notes at that time of what Joseph said) at that time of what he said.

 

[campeador]

Here is the context and the background:

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Money_digging/%22Treasure_hunting%22_trip_to_Salem

** Fulfillment of the revelation**

Seriously?

What about this part:

1. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them.

 

[why_me]

Seriously?

What about this part:
Are you saying this has nothing to do with money? Didn’t Joseph Smith declare bankruptcy shortly after he returned to Kirtland, Oh from Salem empty handed?

At least we know this part has yet to be fulfilled:

90 converts is hardly a fulfillment of this passage.

Actually, the point was simple: the definition of treasure was not money but converts and the planting of seed for the gospel to take hold.

You need to read about that time. The lds church was gaining many converts during that time. And these converts needed to be provided for. In kirkland, the lds church formed a kirkland bank society. It failed during the banking crash of 1837. What happened then, also happened in 2008.

Here is an interesting presentation for you. It covers what many antimormons say about Joseph Smith…

fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2004_Anti-Mormons_and_Documentary_Sources.html

And here is something about that time:

fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2006_Legal_Trials_of_Joseph_Smith.html

**Ohio Cases
By February 1831, Joseph and the entire church in New York had moved to Kirtland, Ohio. What success did he have in court there? Actually, they had a great deal–until the last two years.

In Ohio Joseph brought or defended some sixty-six varied civil or criminal suits, including some Kirtland Temple Committee cases. These ranged from performing marriages without a license to a case arising from Zion’s Camp. Joseph also countered with his own suits: like slander, assault and battery. In August 1837, the year after the Kirtland Temple was dedicated, Joseph Smith, Sr., and eighteen others forcibly evicted an armed mob seeking to take it over. They were sued for riot and assault but were acquitted by J.P. Oliver Cowdery. Also, in January 1838, five men were acquitted of arson for burning the Church’s printing press and book bindery near the temple. Joseph Smith did lose a few civil cases, including one for the return of consecrated property. Then with the depression and panic of 1837 came a plague of debt-collection suits. Finally, there came a case involving the most serious business disaster of his life–brought the last year they were in Ohio.

With credit in scarce supply, the saints formed their own bank, like many in the Western Reserve, to help ease the crunch. It was called the “Kirtland Safety Society” (another oxymoron). Like so many others, their bank failed. But unlike the others, the Mormons at the last minute were denied their banking license. They tried to stamp the word “Anti” before “bank,” but that didn’t work either. In 1837, a private action was brought for banking without a license. Before the case could be heard in October, legal and other persecution in Ohio rose to a new level.

On 27 July 1837, Joseph recorded that he was “detained all day by wicked and vexatious law suits.” Apparently, he was sued on six separate charges–and tried on at least three of them–on the same day! (We haven’t discovered them all, but most were probably civil debt collection cases.) At the end of the day, Joseph said:

About sunset, I got into my carriage to return home. At this moment, the sheriff sprang into our carriage, seized my lines, and served another writ on me…sworn out by a man who a few weeks previous had brought a new fashioned cooking stove to Kirtland…and wished me to test it for him. That man thought that now would be a good time to get paid for it. I gave my watch to the officer for security and we all returned home.5

From then on, he made a point of avoiding Painesville!

At the fall jury trial on the Kirtland Safety Society Case, Joseph and some prior bank officers apparently lost their case and appealed. Before it could be heard, however, the remaining saints had left en masse for Missouri. Ultimately, the private party who brought suit through a straw man recovered a judgment and took a lien on some assets, including the Kirtland Temple. It eventually came into RLDS hands, where it has remained to this day. The saints moved, but not to flee their debts. Of the more than $52,000 owed by Joseph and the Temple Committee, over 90% was paid–even after Joseph left Ohio and abandoned his beloved temple in January 1838.**

Life was not easy for mormons at that time.

 

[why_me]

Seriously?

What about this part:
Are you saying this has nothing to do with money? Didn’t Joseph Smith declare bankruptcy shortly after he returned to Kirtland, Oh from Salem empty handed?

At least we know this part has yet to be fulfilled:

90 converts is hardly a fulfillment of this passage.

There are many americans today praying about their debts. It is quite common to pray about such things. Life was not easy for mormons at that time. They had many enemies. And a lot of debt had to do with persecution, constant movement, and the economic situation.

 

[tundramom]

Yes indeed, by several men who were fully adult at the time that Jesus spoke, who recieved revelation from the Man of Whom they spoke, and their accounts (mostly) agreed one with another.

I notice, however, that the Catholics who put the bible together had OTHER ‘gospels’ around that they did not include in the collection called ‘scripture,’ because there were problems with the narrative…and those people were, ostensibly, witnesses of Christ’s life as well.

And NONE of them were ten year olds attempting to remember an off hand remark made at a single event–the details of which he got WRONG in other ways.

To compare the two—my, my…and you guys think WE think too much of Joseph Smith!

ok, let’s discount that one quote by a supposed 10 year old. What about the other ones?

Steph

 

[AtticusFinch]

The posters who post the quotations have seen the mormon responses and also know the mormon responses. It matters not if there are new members on the forum. The people posting the quotations are well aware of the mormon responses. But they post the quotations anyway. I have seen the boasting quotation many times and the others too. And if I remember correctly answersplease posted the quaker quote not that long ago.

The can be no excuse for the hardcore antimormon catholic posters on this forum for posting such quotations for shock and awe when these quotations have been answered over and over again by the mormons who come on the forum.

I understand your frustration, but let me offer this: There are new people to the board all the time. Most will not go searching old threads. Either they ask questions that have been asked before, or old posters bring up old issues so that new people can see new discussions. Just as Mormons post the same stuff over and over, so do other groups. I am certain we have not seen the last of MMM, Fanny Alger, Quakers on the Moon, etc. By the same token, I am sure we have not seen the last of the Crusades, the sex scandal, the Inquisition, etc.

 

[lax16]

The posters who post the quotations have seen the mormon responses and also know the mormon responses. It matters not if there are new members on the forum. The people posting the quotations are well aware of the mormon responses. But they post the quotations anyway. I have seen the boasting quotation many times and the others too. And if I remember correctly answersplease posted the quaker quote not that long ago.

The can be no excuse for the hardcore antimormon catholic posters on this forum for posting such quotations for shock and awe when these quotations have been answered over and over again by the mormons who come on the forum.

I disagree. I don’t consider anyone a hardcore antimormon poster just because they post quotes from Joseph Smith. I think the words of any modern day prophet who claims to bring forward another testimony of Jesus Christ must be discussed.

If you were on the other side of the argument, I am sure you would want to discuss the meaning of Joseph Smith’s words and actions.

One can’t rely on the idea that “mormons are such nice people” (as you so often say) but we have to dig deep into the teachings (especially the early ones in which Mormonism was founded) to decide if it is true.

Besides, early Mormon leaders were very anti-Catholic and we are Catholic.

Out of curiousity, did Catholics persecute the early Mormons? I am wondering if there is a reason for the strong disdain other than the BoM claiming it to be the church founded by the devil.
Who is the BoM referring to as the devil as the founder of the great and abominable church? We consider Jesus Christ to be our founder. Was it Peter?

 

[lax16]

There is a difference. The gospels were most likely edited by the people who wrote them. I am sure that it took more than one draft to write each gospel. And yes, they were taken from memory. But what we have with the words of Joseph Smith are notes taken by men as Joseph said what he said or after the fact. Sad, but true. And human beings are short on memory. Now I am hoping that with the publications of the Joseph Smith Papers we will have more writings by Joseph Smith himself. But I am not counting on it.

The problem was with Joseph Smith. To my knowledge he hated writing. In fact, he had his secretary write his journal for him. And this also creates problems. Joseph Smith was speaking for his here and now and not for the internet two hundred years later. He hated writing but he did love to talk. And so, we have mainly second hand accounts by ‘trusted’ notetakers (many people were taken notes at that time of what Joseph said) at that time of what he said.

Wasn’t he a prophet for goodness sake!!?? Wouldn’t God help him out in this area?

Like I said, Moses didn’t seem to have these problems and you often compare JS to the prophets of the OT.

You can’t have it both ways. He’s either a prophet led by Diving Intervention and his words are given to him by God or not. Period. Stop blaming the writers, or lack thereof, for the words that came out of his mouth. Unless everyone that attended his talks were his enemies and all of the early Mormons were illiterate, the argument doesn’t work.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I disagree. I don’t consider anyone a hardcore antimormon poster just because they post quotes from Joseph Smith. I think the words of any modern day prophet who claims to bring forward another testimony of Jesus Christ must be discussed.

If you were on the other side of the argument, I am sure you would want to discuss the meaning of Joseph Smith’s words and actions.

One can’t rely on the idea that “mormons are such nice people” (as you so often say) but we have to dig deep into the teachings (especially the early ones in which Mormonism was founded) to decide if it is true.

Besides, early Mormon leaders were very anti-Catholic and we are Catholic.

Out of curiousity, did Catholics persecute the early Mormons? I am wondering if there is a reason for the strong disdain other than the BoM claiming it to be the church founded by the devil.
Who is the BoM referring to as the devil as the founder of the great and abominable church? We consider Jesus Christ to be our founder. Was it Peter?

Agreed. Questioning does not equal “anti”. Disagreeing does not equal “anti”.

An “Anti” would be someone who deliberately sets out to distort the truth about something with a view towards undermining it. Questioning and disagreeing fall far short of that.

If any faith is true, as its members assert, then it should be able to stand up to scrutiny.

 

[dianaiad]

No Diana - you can’t have it both ways.

Either JS is/was a prophet and he is responsible for all of his actions and his words and his church members are responsible for making sure it is all handled properly or… not.

Wrong. You are attempting to make him responsible for words and ‘prophecies’ that he did NOT say.

You are also elevating to the level of scripture things that simply are not. Joseph Smith was a man. As a man, he was imperfect, as we are all imperfect, save Christ. If you allow Moses the right to be imperfect and mess up in word and deed and still BE a prophet, then you have to allow all others who claim to be prophets the same right.

Including Joseph Smith.

The Jews do it with Moses.

Do WHAT with Moses? They accept everything they have about him…and they acknowledge that even when Moses did something dumb or problematic, he remained a prophet. How is that different from the way Joseph Smith is dealt with?

The Christians do it with Jesus.

Ok, I don’t get that one AT all.

And Joseph Smith lived only how many years ago???

Nor that one. In fact, all we have of either Moses or Jesus is what made it into accepted scripture. We don’t have all the extra day to day life records that we do of JS…and I notice that you aren’t criticising JS for the stuff he wrote or said that DID make it into scripture. In fact, if you are going to compare apples to apples here, then the only things that you can reasonably compare between Moses and Joseph (and you can’t possibly expect to compare Joseph Smith and JESUS without getting laughed out of any conversation with LDS! WE do not compare Joseph to Jesus, nor expect Joseph to reach those divine heights. It is insane that our opponents think that he has to. ) then you must, in all fairness, compare only those writings that are encoded in scripture.

…unless you have Aaron’s diary telling us how Moses spent his days, argued with his spouse and dealt with the day to day problems of the trek he and his people took.

 

[dianaiad]

Here’s an interesting quote from Joseph Smith—History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, page 465-66:

Maybe, given enough time this prophesy it will come true?

Question.

Is this in the Doctrine and Covenants?

 

[dianaiad]

Agreed. Questioning does not equal “anti”. Disagreeing does not equal “anti”.

An “Anti” would be someone who deliberately sets out to distort the truth about something with a view towards undermining it. Questioning and disagreeing fall far short of that.

If any faith is true, as its members assert, then it should be able to stand up to scrutiny.

While you are quite correct about this. Wouldn’t you say, though, that posting out of context quotes to which the answers have been given…and given…and given…and given…as if they were new discoveries, and done in the hope that THIS time they wouldn’t be countered and some poor unsuspecting boob would fal…er, believe the charges. false and idiotic as they are, is also something only anti’s would do?

In fact, I would say that doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is not only the definition of insanity, it’s the hallmark of the anti.

 

[lax16]

Wrong. You are attempting to make him responsible for words and ‘prophecies’ that he did NOT say.

So everything he said that is questionable is a “prophecy he didn’t say?” Did he preface his talks with "Here comes the Holy Spirit and what I am about to say is coming from God so take really good notes - or - This is just me talking off the cuff, thank you all for coming today and let me stand in front of you and speak in a random matter, please pay no attention to what I am about to say. My wife is tired of listening to me so I thought I would call a group of people together to discuss my thoughts about nothing important.

You are also elevating to the level of scripture things that simply are not. Joseph Smith was a man. As a man, he was imperfect, as we are all imperfect, save Christ. If you allow Moses the right to be imperfect and mess up in word and deed and still BE a prophet, then you have to allow all others who claim to be prophets the same right.

So when Joseph Smith would speak in front of a group of people he was just a man not a prophet? It never occurred to him that what he said might be considered important by his followers? God did not provide direction in this area?
Give an example of a prophet spoke but did not have direction from God and where their unimportant stuff was recorded. (JS was recorded)
Did the prophets of the OT call people together just to chit-chat about unimportant things? If so, please provide the scripture. Where was Moses imperfect and messed up in his writings that were inspired by God**?**

Including Joseph Smith.

Do WHAT with Moses? They accept everything they have about him…and they acknowledge that even when Moses did something dumb or problematic, he remained a prophet. How is that different from the way Joseph Smith is dealt with?

Is there anything written or said by Moses that is recorded that is dumb or problematic? Is there anything written by Moses that did not stand the test of time?
It is different because his WRITINGS and HIS WORDS were from God. I will agree with you that JS was a lot like some of the prophets in their ACTIONS (which made God very angry).]

Ok, I don’t get that one AT all.

Nor that one. In fact, all we have of either Moses or Jesus is what made it into accepted scripture. We don’t have all the extra day to day life records that we do of JS…**and I notice that you aren’t criticising JS for the stuff he wrote or said that DID make it into **scripture. In fact, if you are going to compare apples to apples here, then the only things that you can reasonably compare between Moses and Joseph (and you can’t possibly expect to compare Joseph Smith and JESUS without getting laughed out of any conversation with LDS! WE do not compare Joseph to Jesus, nor expect Joseph to reach those divine heights. It is insane that our opponents think that he has to. ) then you must, in all fairness, compare only those writings that are encoded in scripture.

Please tell me which of the many books Mormons read are considered scripture again? I’ll have to start reading his scriptural stuff for discussion.

…unless you have Aaron’s diary telling us how Moses spent his days, argued with his spouse and dealt with the day to day problems of the trek he and his people took.

It doesn’t matter what Aaron’s day-to day activties were if God did not want them passed down as law or inspiration. What did Aaron say that was recorded/passed on that was questionable? Were any of the prophets of the OT acting out of character for a person of their day? Weren’t they doing things that God would correct for the purpose of making an example out of them? Wasn’t that recorded in scripture?

 

[lax16]

Question.

Is this in the Doctrine and Covenants?

Why the need for soooooo many books that get put into this category or that?

When did it get decided what was scripture or not?

Did the first Mormons have all of these different categories for all of the words of their prophets? (Did Oliver Cowdery say anything that was prophetic?)

 

[lax16]

btw - I am not trying to be annoying by using blue type.

I just want it to show up on my post as I have had a problem with it not showing up and a Mormon poster couldn’t figure out what I was saying because the regular type blended in.

 

[Loboto-Me]

I came into this thread not knowing much about the Mormon faith. I understand about putting statements out of context, and will agree that some Joseph Smith statements probably are taken out of context.

I don’t really care whether Mormons think Smith was a prophet or not because my own opinion of that is that at least I don’t follow him, and I’m not the one who’s being mislead.

I’m still fuming about Smith putting himself in the same position as Jesus… no, strike that… In a better position than Jesus, as in Smith’s statement, Jesus must have lied to everyone when he said that HIS Church would never fail. He basically called Jesus a liar in that statement. I don’t care what context this was taken from, the statement that he was better than the true apostles and Jesus himself, right there tells me that Smith should have been avoided like the plague.

 

[dianaiad]

It doesn’t matter what Aaron’s day-to day activties were if God did not want them passed down as law or inspiration. What did Aaron say that was recorded/passed on that was questionable? Were any of the prophets of the OT acting out of character for a person of their day? Weren’t they doing things that God would correct for the purpose of making an example out of them? Wasn’t that recorded in scripture?

lax, the reason we have what we have of Moses…and of Jesus and of all the other prophets/apostles…is because people picked and chose among the tales/writings that were important. They were SCRIPTURE.

Everything else just went the way of all things that fade in time.

In order to compare between the writings of the Bible and what Joseph Smith and others have said and done, you have to at least compare apples to apples…and that is, scripture to scripture.

In this case, you can, in all fairness, only count those writings of Joseph Smith that became actual scripture, if you are going to COMPARE them to scriptural writing.

Yes, yes…I know that you don’t believe that the BoM and Doctrine and Covenants are scripture, but WE do. That means that WE put what is in there upon the same level as those writings found in the bible, which makes it reasonable for you to compare stuff found in them to stuff found in the Bible.

It is NOT reasonable for you to hold the things we do not count as scripture to the same standard…unless of course you allow us to put all those problematic Papal Bulls/Encyclicals in the same catagory.

 

[why_me]

I’m still fuming about Smith putting himself in the same position as Jesus… no, strike that… In a better position than Jesus, as in Smith’s statement, Jesus must have lied to everyone when he said that HIS Church would never fail. He basically called Jesus a liar in that statement. I don’t care what context this was taken from, the statement that he was better than the true apostles and Jesus himself, right there tells me that Smith should have been avoided like the plague.

Again this is something that he purportedly said. We have no idea that he said that. And we have no idea of the context nor his tone when he said it. And this is the problem with pasting and posting a second hand account of what he said. See my point? Now this quotation is not hidden from mormons. But also, the reference for the quotation is given and it comes from someones notes. Please read below link:

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Narcissism/Did_Joseph_Smith_‘boast’_of_keeping_the_Church_intact

Now of course, no catholic poster who will repost this quotation will tell you the context of the quotation. And I have addressed it over and over gain. And so, I will do it again. I hope that you will check the context before you draw conclusions.

 

[why_me]

While you are quite correct about this. Wouldn’t you say, though, that posting out of context quotes to which the answers have been given…and given…and given…and given…as if they were new discoveries, and done in the hope that THIS time they wouldn’t be countered and some poor unsuspecting boob would fal…er, believe the charges. false and idiotic as they are, is also something only anti’s would do?

In fact, I would say that doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is not only the definition of insanity, it’s the hallmark of the anti.

You are spot on. :clapping: and I will take my hat off to you…:tiphat: Because this is what happens over and over again and the posters who have been around on the mormon threads for a long time know it.

 

[why_me]

Wasn’t he a prophet for goodness sake!!?? Wouldn’t God help him out in this area?

Like I said, Moses didn’t seem to have these problems and you often compare JS to the prophets of the OT.

You can’t have it both ways. He’s either a prophet led by Diving Intervention and his words are given to him by God or not. Period. Stop blaming the writers, or lack thereof, for the words that came out of his mouth. Unless everyone that attended his talks were his enemies and all of the early Mormons were illiterate, the argument doesn’t work.

I don’t know. All people must learn from their mistakes. What do we know about the prophets or apostles in the new testament. Not much. We don’t see the human demension of their lives in the brief accounts that we have. What do we know of Paul and all that he said or did? We only have a trace for his life. He was much more than what the bible says he was. And he did and said more than what it is in the bible.

What do we have of moses? Do we have every word that he said throughout his life? Hardly. Do we have every action that he did? Hardly. Do we have all his emotional life in the bible? Hardly