Interesting Martin Luther Quote list

[Psalm89]

itsjustdave1988:

No. Salvation is by grace alone. No matter how smart you are, how much ancient Hebrew you’ve learned, or ancient Greek, you cannot merely exegete Scripture and be saved. Not one person in the NT read their way to salvation. Not one.

That’s why the Ethiopian Eunuch needed the inspired teachings of St. Philip, and the Bereans needed the inspired teachings of St. Peter. In the words of the Eunuch after being asked how his “Scripture alone” method helped him to know the truth, he responded, “How can I, without someone to teach me?”

Yes I agree the Holy Spirit is needed as well, we teach this.

“How can I, without someone to teach me?”

So what you are saying is that we need a teacher I agree but if there isn’t one available then the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit will be enough. But where does the teacher get his info? The Bible first, and tradtions that coincide with the Bible second.

Lutherans don’t hate traditions, we have our own. We just don’t believe the tradtions are infallible, only the word of God is perfect because traditions are made my sinful man. But as a Catholic you believe that the Holy Spirit through the Pope makes some traditions infallible correct?

 

[Psalm89]

itsjustdave1988:

Yes. Some traditions are binding, just like Paul asserted. Just as was asserted by ALL of Christianity until the novelties of the middle ages. Just as the majority of Chrisitanity continues to assert today.

Why is your “sola Scriptura” and “sola fide” tradition binding? It has no basis in Scripture or Tradition.

I’m going to drop out of this thread, not because I concede the arguement, but I can’t retype everything that has already been said about Sola Scriptura. I have a 665 page book in front of me that lays out Lutheran theology, and one of the doctrines in Sola Scriptura. I could just retype the whole chapter, but that is a lot of stuff. I can’t answer Sola Scriptura in one paragraph, just like I can’t explain everything about the means of grace in one paragraph.

If you want a fantastic book on Lutheran Theology and get a real understanding of why and what we believe get Christian Dogmatics by John Theodore Mueller.

shop.cph.org/Product.pasp?txtCatalog=CPHProduct&txtCategory=&txtProductID=151071

It sums up the Lutheran beliefs with scriptural backing.

I am honestly seeking the truth in these matters, and if Catholics are right, I will gladly join the Roman Catholic church.

I have about dozen serious questions that I need difinitive answers to before I would make such a serious decision. It will probably take years before I say yea or nay.

One thing for sure, sola scriptura aside, there are LARGE theological differences between what Lutherans and Catholics believe.

Feel free to recommend your favorite book on Catholic theology and a refutation of sola scriptura. I have read the Lutheran side many times and it makes sense to me, I want to hear the Catholic side.

Peace
Psalm89

 

[jjanderson]

Psalm 89: There is an excellent book called “Not by Faith Alone” by Robet A. Sungenis. It deals with Luther’s theology as well as all the other reformers. It has over 700 pages and is extremely thorough in analyzing the differences between Catholic and Protestent theology.

While I was still Lutheran Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s “The Cost of Discipleship” was instrumental in my understanding that the Faith Alone doctrine was leading just as many astray as Luther thought the Catholic Church’s doctrine was.

Also, Thomas Howard’s "On Being Catholic) is absolutely great. He does a great job just portraying the beauty of the Catholic church and how her doctrines are supposed to rightly be viewed and lived. Also explains the beauty of the Sacraments.

If you want a great book on Catholic spirituality, check out “The Spiritual Life” by Father Jean Nicolas Grou. Again, a true portrayal of Catholic spirituality. You would thoroughly enjoy it even as Lutheran. (Try Sophia Press)

Or try Ignatious Press, Catholic Answers also would have some of these books. Happy reading! God Bless you

Peace in Christ +

 

[jjanderson]

Psalm 89:

Also “The Gift of Faith” by Father Tadeusz Dajczer is a book on spirituality and the interior life. This book drives home the point that the “works” portion of the equation boils down to complete and total abandment and submission to God’s will as set forth in the Gospels. In my humble opinion, I think absolutely every Christian should read this book. “There is only one important, serious reality worth living for, that is God and His will.” (page 99)

You can obtain this book at: familiesofnazareth@worldnet.att.net

Peace in Christ +

 

[rfk]

Although there were traditionally bitter disagreements between Catholics and Lutherans, I am personally glad that many of us have moved past those things that divide us, and have an appreciation for what we share in common.

When I helped start an independent, private Catholic school, we needed to find space for the school. It was a kindly Lutheran, Pastor Dave, who generously rented us classroom space. He had 6 or 7 rooms that were used for Sunday school and for evening Bible study through the week. Since they were unused M-F daytime, he rented them to us. But beyond being a mere landlord, he interacted with the students in a postive, Christian manner and believed that he was helping to support something that was God’s work. He truly felt giving the children an orthodox Catholic education was better for their souls than sending them to a public school.

When we compare ourselves to the larger secular society that is trying to drive all mention of Christ from public life, we Catholics are more allies to our committed Protestant brethren than rivals.

 

[rfk]

On a related note, I was listening to a Catholic tape that quoted from Martin Luther towards the end of his life. The essence of the quote was lamenting that sola scriptura had created a situation where everyone, even stupid and ignorant people, were considering themselves to be their own Bible authority. Can anyone point me to the actual quote?

 

[TertiumQuid]

This entire thread is an example of why I don’t take Roman Catholics seriously. To simply think yanking Luther quotes out of their contexts is actually a real argument against Protestantism shows how desperate you folks are

Here’s an example: Someone above posted this quote from Luther:

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent’s head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." [Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther’s Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan, Volume 51, 128-129.]Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.

It is is correct that Luther mentions Mary in his last Wittenberg sermon. If one reads the entire context though of the above words, one will find that Luther’s tone is quite sarcastic, and his main point is that Christ alone should be worshiped. Luther mocks those who would call upon Mary or venerate her. Luther insists that those who seek Christ through Mary do so by the use of “reason,” and “reason is by nature a harmful whore.” You guys forgot to quote that part!

Anyone interested in Luther’s Mariology can read the reasearch i’ve done on it here:

ntrmin.org/Luthers%20Theology%20of%20Mary.htm

ntrmin.org/Respone%20to%20Armstrong%20on%20Luther%20and%20Mary.htm

Highly irritated,
James Swan

 

[jjanderson]

Where does it say in Scripture that reason is a “harmful whore?”

Peace in Christ +

 

[jjanderson]

Psalm89:

Before I defend anything else about sola scriptura I want this answered:

My question for you is: are the scriptures sufficient for salvation? If someone just had a bible, a sound mind and nothing else is there enough in there to get that person to heaven? Or does the person need the Pope/Catholic Church too?

Are the scriptures sufficient for salvation?

But how is it determined who has a sound mind? There are all kinds of people out there who use Scripture to support immoral behavior and wrong ideas, who would contend that their minds are sound. What is the test for a sound mind? Is there a test? How about the tried and true method of a rich tradition of the theology of Early Church Fathers, hammered out in Church Councils, a deposit of faith guarded and preserved by a Church leadership of all that was taught by the Apostles?

 

[petra]

Psalm89:

Feel free to recommend your favorite book on Catholic theology and a refutation of sola scriptura. I have read the Lutheran side many times and it makes sense to me, I want to hear the Catholic side.

I was raised Lutheran and subsequently was involved in the Evangelical wing of Protestantism for 22 years before converting to the Catholic Church. An excellent book that clarified the role of Scripture and Tradition for me was By What Authority?: An Evangelical Discovers Catholic Tradition by Mark P. Shea.

Ironically, Sacred Tradition provides the only logical basis for the belief in the Scriptures as the Word of God. Protestants rightly trust the scriptures, but they do so without a fully rational basis. This book was pivotal for me in my conversion.

 

[Writer]

bonica:

Here’s an interesting one:

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

Let Your Sins Be Strong: A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521, From the Wartburg

Interesting… He kind of misses the point a bit here, doesn’t he? Reminds me of the historical villan Rasputin who appears to have believed that the greater the earthly sins the greater the grace received in the Lord. Something tells me that Rasputin is not with the Lord, however.

Part of the problem with Luther is that he wrote so much in his lifetime. I heard in college that finding contradictory opinions wasn’t so challenging just because of the sheer vollumes he’s written on religious topics. I also understand that he may not have been any too fond of the Jewish people.

 

[Mary3]

Psalm89:

Before I defend anything else about sola scriptura I want this answered:

My question for you is: are the scriptures sufficient for salvation? If someone just had a bible, a sound mind and nothing else is there enough in there to get that person to heaven? Or does the person need the Pope/Catholic Church too?

Are the scriptures sufficient for salvation?

If the Scriptures were sufficient for salvation, wouldn’t all Christians interpret them the same way? Wouldn’t we all agree on the necessity of baptism? Wouldn’t we all agree on how to interpret the Bread of Life discourse in John 6? Why is there so much disagreement among sincere Christians who obviously love the Lord about the interpretation of Scripture? And as I asked before, why would Paul send Timothy to the church, which Paul describes as pillar and foundation of the truth?

If Scripture was sufficient for salvation, what happened to all those Christians who lived in the time before the canon of Scripture was established? They believed so firmly in Christ, that most of them gave their lives as martyrs. Were they saved, since they had no Scripture to guide them toward salvation?

Remember that the printing press became available around the time of Luther. Until then, most Christians did not own a Bible, nor could they have read it if they had one. Were they eligible for salvation, without access to the Scriptures to guide their daily lives?

So, back to your question. Are the Scriptures sufficient for salvation? My answer to your question is “no”. I’m eager to hear your answers to my questions.

 

[mark_a]

Luther has come to symbolize for Catholics what the Pope symbolizes for non-Catholics. Why we focus on him is a mystery to me. He was right about many abuses in the Church, but his original cause was hijacked for political purposes. We have more problems with present day worshipers of Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin here in America.

Back to the quotes- does anyone have the one where Luther told his own mother not to leave the Catholic Church? I don’t know if it’s true.

 

[Katholikos]

mark a:

Luther has come to symbolize for Catholics what the Pope symbolizes for non-Catholics. Why we focus on him is a mystery to me. He was right about many abuses in the Church, but his original cause was hijacked for political purposes. We have more problems with present day worshipers of Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin here in America.

Back to the quotes- does anyone have the one where Luther told his own mother not to leave the Catholic Church? I don’t know if it’s true.

I can’t speak for others, but for myself, the reason I focus on Luther is that he is lionized by most Protestants. They heap praise upon the man who cut eleven books and parts of two others out of the Bible and then declared Sola Scriptura, the foundational doctrine of all of Protestantism along with Sola Fide. Protestants praise him but know little about him.

Luther said he could find no scriptural basis for forbidding plural marriage, encouraged Henry VIII to commit bigamy by marrying Anne Boleyn without divorcing Catherine of Aragon, and approved in writing the bigamous marriage of Philip Hesse, thus aiding and abetting adultery which, unrepented, would send a man’s soul to hell. Luther is the source of the pernicious doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved which I used to believe as a Protestant. There’s much more to know about Luther.

The image that is presented is that of poor valiant Luther struggling against the powerful, evil Catholic Church. It’s been on my mind because of two recent films that were made about the man. I saw one of these on PBS not long ago. I would let Luther be, except that he’s portrayed as such a hero when he’s anything but a hero. I recently read on a Lutheran website that Luther’s birthday was the second most important date in Christian history, the first being the birth of Christ.

I would be very surprised if the story about Luther’s mother and the Church were true, since Luther frequently called the Church the Whore of Babylon and the Pope the antichrist, and Catholics “papists” in the most scathing, vulgar terms.

Blessed Father Damien, Pray for us! Jay

 

[Katholikos]

Psalm89:

Feel free to recommend your favorite book on Catholic theology and a refutation of sola scriptura. I have read the Lutheran side many times and it makes sense to me, I want to hear the Catholic side.

The Spirit of Catholicism, Karl Adam (Catholic theologian) - available at Amazon

The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism, Louis Bouyer (a former Lutheran) - also available at Amazon

 

[Katholikos]

Psalm89:

Yes I agree the Holy Spirit is needed as well, we teach this.

“How can I, without someone to teach me?”

So what you are saying is that we need a teacher I agree but if there isn’t one available then the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit will be enough. But where does the teacher get his info? The Bible first, and tradtions that coincide with the Bible second.

Lutherans don’t hate traditions, we have our own. We just don’t believe the tradtions are infallible, only the word of God is perfect because traditions are made my sinful man. But as a Catholic you believe that the Holy Spirit through the Pope makes some traditions infallible correct?

The teachings of the Catholic Church come from the lips of the Apostles. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Apostolic Tradition confirm her teachings, but the source is the Depositum Fides, the Deposit of Faith, that body of saving truth entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and handed on by them to the Church to be preserved and proclaimed. It embraces the whole of Christ’s preaching as embodied in Revelation and Tradition. Although the Church’s understanding of these teachings can develop, it can never be augmented or changed. It is never to be tampered with.

The Catholic Faith was “once for all delivered to the saints” by the Apostles (Jude 3).

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Psalm89,

But where does the teacher get his info? …

From the Church, called the “pillar and foundation of truth” according to the Word of God.

… The Bible first, and tradtions that coincide with the Bible second.

Where in the Bible does it say that Mark’s Gospel is an inspired part of the Bible and The Shephard of Hermas or 1 Clement is not? If you followed your epistemological principle, the Bible is nothing more than a fallible collection of books.

I recommend Robert Sungenis’ book, Not By Scripture Alone.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

rfk,

rfk:

On a related note, I was listening to a Catholic tape that quoted from Martin Luther towards the end of his life. The essence of the quote was lamenting that sola scriptura had created a situation where everyone, even stupid and ignorant people, were considering themselves to be their own Bible authority. Can anyone point me to the actual quote?

Here’s some candidates of the lament of Martin Luther…

There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams. (Martin Luther, as cited in Ray, S., Faith of Our Fathers)

In another place he laments again …

Since the downfall of Popery and the cessation of excommunications and spiritual penalties, the people have learned to despise the word of God. They no longer care for the churches; they have ceased to fear and honor God…After throwing off the yoke of the Pope, everyone wishes to live as he pleases. [They say] ‘we will spend the day like Lutherans. Drunkenness has come upon us like a deluge.’ If God had not closed my eyes, and if I had foreseen these scandals, I would never have begun to teach the gospel."

(WL 6, 920)

Luther confesses…

I confess… that I am more negligent than I was under the Pope and there is now nowhere such an amount of earnestness under the Gospel, as was fomerly seen among monks and priests."

(WL 9. 1311)

In a letter to Zwingli, Luther writes…

If the world last long it will be again necessary, on account of the different interpretations of Scripture which now exist, that to preserve the unity of faith we should receive the Councils and decrees and fly to them for refuge.

" (Contra Zuingli et Oecol. cited in “Sola Scriptura: A Blueprint For Anarchy” by Patrick Madrid)

 

[mark_a]

Katholikos:

I can’t speak for others, but for myself, the reason I focus on Luther is that he is lionized by most Protestants. They heap praise upon the man … birthday was the second most important date in Christian history, the first being the birth of Christ.

I would be very surprised if the story about Luther’s mother and the Church were true, since Luther frequently called the Church the Whore of Babylon and the Pope the antichrist, and Catholics “papists” in the most scathing, vulgar terms.

Blessed Father Damien, Pray for us! Jay

Katholikos,
Whew!! I stand corrected!!!

 

[jjanderson]

Luther’s high regard for Sacred Scripture went only so far as it fit into his theological system. I think it’s common knowledge Luther attempted to remove the book of James from the New Testament. Here’s what he said about James:

Therefore James concludes falsely that now at last Abraham was justified after that obedience; for faith and righteousness are known by works as by the fruits. But it does not follow: 'I know a tree by its fruit; therefore the tree becomes good as a result of its fruit. Therefore let our opponents be done with their James, whom they throw up to us so often. (LW 4,26.)

Therefore St. James’ epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it. (LW 35, 362.)

The epistle of James gives us much trouble, for the papists embrace it alone and leave out all the rest…Accordingly, if they will not admit my interpretations, then I shall make rubble also of it. I almost feel like throwing Jimmy into the stove, as the priest in Kalenberg did. (LW 34, 317.)

Peace in Christ +