Interesting new Evangelization Trend

[Catholic_Dude]

Can you cite your source supporting the inerrantcy off all historical and scientific "facts in the Bible?

I was positive I read something about the Church condemning the idea that inerrancy only extends to the parts pertaining to faith and morals. I looked back in a couple of documents like those of St Pius X and Vatican I but I didnt see such a comment. After doing a search however I came upon this:

1. … … When, subsequently, some Catholic writers, in spite of this solemn definition of Catholic doctrine, by which such divine authority is claimed for the “entire books with all their parts” as to secure freedom from any error whatsoever, **ventured to restrict the truth of Sacred Scripture solely to matters of faith and morals, **and to regard other matters, whether in the domain of physical science or history, as “obiter dicta” and – as they contended – in no wise connected with faith, Our Predecessor of immortal memory, Leo XIII in the Encyclical Letter Providentissimus Deus, published on November 18 in the year 1893, justly and rightly condemned these errors and safe-guarded the studies of the Divine Books by most wise precepts and rules.
   -Pius XII, Divino Afflante Spiritu
   I didnt read the whole encyclical, nor am I sure what “orbiter dicta” specifically means, but from what I can understand this passage is expressly condemning the idea that inerrancy is limited to matters of faith and morals. I welcome any correction or insight.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Mustard seeds grow into mustard plants.

The plant is quite large, but I don’t believe it’s a tree.

Very interesting, I didnt realize that.

I think that anti-intellectual is a little off. To me, it has always seemed more like fear of the unknown or the answers that might come up. One of the most difficult things to deal with intellectually is when your beliefs are challenged and proven wrong. That is one reason that so many people with a goal of converting people use emotions and not logic to achieve the goal. After all, if you are moved and the emotion makes you change, it is ok that it does not fit with logic. After all, it makes you feel better.

This is a very good point regarding just how much role emotion plays a role. The fact is Protestantism doesnt have the theological foundations to produce solid teachings in the first place. Sure there are the more conservative branches that put more focus on theological training, but nothing comes close to Catholic theology. To make matters worse in protestant seminaries there is often such a mix of denominations that you almost have to water things down. I hear Marcus Grodi on the Journey home say that when he went to protestant seminary there were like 40 different denominations represented.

 

[Teflon93]

Very interesting, I didnt realize that.

This is a very good point regarding just how much role emotion plays a role. The fact is Protestantism doesnt have the theological foundations to produce solid teachings in the first place. Sure there are the more conservative branches that put more focus on theological training, but nothing comes close to Catholic theology. To make matters worse in protestant seminaries there is often such a mix of denominations that you almost have to water things down. I hear Marcus Grodi on the Journey home say that when he went to protestant seminary there were like 40 different denominations represented.

Of course, the fact that our translations refer to “mustard tree” rather than “mustard plant” does not overturn the authority of Scripture in the eyes of anyone but the most legalistic and shallow-thinking literalist. The mustard plant is very large, its seeds very small, and Christ’s analogy is complete.

It is pretty humorous to see various Protestants get up in arms over Protestant emotionalism on the one hand—“You Catholics are saying we don’t think!”, then get told “You Catholics have boring worship” and “You Catholics aren’t born again because you can’t point to one profound emotional moment”.

As we have seen in other threads, what Protestants agree upon is limited to what Catholics have given them, augmented by “…and the Catholic Church is wrong.”

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Of course, the fact that our translations refer to “mustard tree” rather than “mustard plant” does not overturn the authority of Scripture in the eyes of anyone but the most legalistic and shallow-thinking literalist. The mustard plant is very large, its seeds very small, and Christ’s analogy is complete.

“You Catholics aren’t born again because you can’t point to one profound emotional moment”.

LOL, this happened to me last week. I was walking down the street and this non-denom protestant was handing out these evangelization cards (eg Rom 3:23, filthy rags, sinner’s prayer, etc) and he said all his years teaching Lutheran sunday school (he was not a pastor however) he was never “born again” until a few years ago when some non-d’s pointed out to him that he had not been because he didnt have one of those stop and think “emotional moments”. I told him I was a Catholic and that I was born again and he was stunned silly. We talked for about a half hour and he was actually a very nice person and not anti-Catholic at all, but it was pretty disturbing to see how his theology lacked a foundation.

 

[ralphinal]

The whole emotional event thing makes me smile. I cry when I hear the theme from “Ol’ Yeller.” I cannot name the movies that have made me tear up or touched me deeply through the years. All of them were profound emotional events. Yet, none of them religious. SO what if I do not feel “moved by the Spirit” during mass. I feel LOVED by God!! In adoration, I feel peace and calm unlike any other. No where in the Bible does it say that I should fall to my knees like Saul and weep for the times that I have persicuted the Church. Even Paul would not explain what he went through as a conversion (God had it planned the whole time).

Back the the origional post, I saw a show last night on CNBC about a pentecostal(?) preacher who decided that his faith was wrong because of translation problems with the KJB verses the origional languages. He began to teacht that there was no hell and that everyone is saved. Other pasters in his denomination tried to get him to stop, eventually cutting all ties with him for leading others into “perdition.” Some of the comments were very much like the origional post: harsh and condesending. It made me wonder how people who deny earthly athority and a magisatium would dare work as such, not to mention do it in such a harsh way.

 

[Writer]

You’re half-right! It’s actually agoraphobia. I was a Fundamentalist Pentecostal for almost 10 years. And I can tell you – anything that looks, smells or feels like intellectual study is deemed suspicious at best, evil at worst.

Pentecostal preachers rarely must attend seminary (I know a few…) and so a general knowledge of the history and tradition of the early church and the formation of Scripture is something they tend to (again, “tend to”, not generalizing) know very little about. Anything beyond the parameters of what they have been taught by their elders or have read/experienced for themselves is suspect. And most of that information is innaccurate.

Pentecostals pride themselves on being “regular” people (also read, “poor” or “working-class”) and view academic learning with utter scorn. Reading works even by CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien was often discouraged in my congregation because neither were Pentecostal. Nevermind that they were intellectual GIANTS. And the possibility that there could be predecessors to Lewis and Tolkien in the (GASP!) Catholic Church was never even entertained. All Catholics were going to Hell.

The refreshing thing about being Pentecostal was the lack of pretension. Because everyone prided themselves on being working-class, regular joes, it was a pretty friendly and open atmosphere. The downside was a mean class warfare streak that resulted in the whole policy of “not asking questions” (especially about the financial workings of the church, but that’s another thread).

Needless to say, the first time I attended a Mass, I thought the walls were going to start bleeding and the music from The Exorcist would blare from the sacristy.

And I think that’s what Catholics have to keep in mind when we try to communicate with people like BroSam. Most of the time, they’re just going on what they’ve been taught, which is erroneous. As long as we can communicate with each other respctfully, I think both groups can learn from each other.

Great post! I was thinking back to my Protestant days, too, and have recalled tons of examples along similar lines. Learning and education never seemed very highly valued by fellow church members when I was a Protestant, and critical thinking was never much encouraged either. The only Protestant (former) friend who even has tried to talk to me about the change from Protestant to Catholic spent more time condemning me to hell than actually trying to reasonably respond to my points; they’re often a lot quicker to suggest your hellbound than to actually try to debate you, if you’re strong in your convictions and able to articulate and support each point clearly.