Interesting Perspectives on Evolution

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Thanks for the interviews, I think Macroevolution is spelled without the dash. May be a matter of French or German to English or something.

Here is a short history of the Pope’s thinking on the subject.

There is no controversy “whether” macroevolution happened (or “common descent”) in the science community. There is just too much evidence.

The debates are on the mechanisms, and the debates are also in philosophy/theology how to reconcile with classic Christian and Catholic theology. The later is what the Pope and Cardinal Schonborn is talking about. They are intelligent enough not to argue biology with trained biologists or genetics with trained geneticists.

Phil P
 
(PhilVaz) …There is no controversy “whether” macroevolution happened (or “common descent”) in the science community. There is just too much evidence.

(jmt) I’ll have to try to read up on the articles you link. It’s been my understanding that “macroevolution” (the genetic change between species from one “kind” to another “kind”) is NOT supported by the evidence…I hope it’s not the case of how one interprets the evidence (or how one defines their terms) as to whether or not macroevolution is a “fact” (verses a “theory”)

(PhilVaz) …The debates are on the mechanisms, and the debates are also in philosophy/theology how to reconcile with classic Christian and Catholic theology. The later is what the Pope and Cardinal Schonborn is talking about. They are intelligent enough not to argue biology with trained biologists or genetics with trained geneticists.

(jmt) …if only trained biologists and geneticists were faithful enough not to argue matters of Catholic Theology with the Magesterium…I guess this is where I have difficulty in reading articles presenting “scientific evidence” for or against evolution…not being a trained biologist nor geneticist I find my self not knowing where the holes are in any given analysis of the evidence…

just random thoughts

for now, I have to say, with regards to God’s action in creating the Universe out of nothing - as considered in the light of faith in God’s Revealtions, my “default” position has changed from an openess to evolution (and an old earth) to that of creationism (and a young earth)…I guess I’m thinking more radically than our times finds comfortable but I have to say: reading God’s Word and accepting their literal import - when the possibilty of a literal understanding remains - is giving me more joy (like that of a child’s unquestioning embrace of his loving Father!) than the constant wrangling over “how do we reconcile faith with science” has ever been able to produce - especially since “science” itself often times seems to boil down to “faith propositions”…

oh well, forgive my musings…I will be reading some of your links.

Keep the Faith
jmt
 
John << I’ll have to try to read up on the articles you link. It’s been my understanding that “macroevolution” (the genetic change between species from one “kind” to another “kind”) is NOT supported by the evidence >>

Macroevolution is supported by many different and converging lines of evidence (the links above). The only people who tell you there is no or little evidence are people like Jonathan Wells (who apparently does have a legit Ph.D. in biology, but does no biological work otherwise) who work for the Discovery Institute, and other creationist writers. :confused:

Example: recent audio debate added to my site is Shermer vs. Wells 2006 (MP3)

It’s my understanding there is no dispute about “common descent” (or macroevolution) in science. Even the International Theological Commission document endorsed by Ratzinger in 2004 says that common descent is “virtually certain” (paragraph 63).

But it is true that the Holy Father seems to have doubts about macroevolution (in some of his writings, like this one linked above).

Phil P
 
The debate goes on in Europe, as this story picks up steam.

Considering that Poland is one of the few truly Catholic countries left in Europe, it may be up to them (and the Vatican) to initiate debate on this topic. Poland may do for Europe today what Ireland did in previous times.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
PhilVaz said:
John << I’ll have to try to read up on the articles you link. It’s been my understanding that “macroevolution” (the genetic change between species from one “kind” to another “kind”) is NOT supported by the evidence >>

Macroevolution is supported by many different and converging lines of evidence (the links above). The only people who tell you there is no or little evidence are people like Jonathan Wells (who apparently does have a legit Ph.D. in biology, but does no biological work otherwise) who work for the Discovery Institute, and other creationist writers. :confused:

Example: recent audio debate added to my site is Shermer vs. Wells 2006 (MP3)

It’s my understanding there is no dispute about “common descent” (or macroevolution) in science. Even the International Theological Commission document endorsed by Ratzinger in 2004 says that common descent is “virtually certain” (paragraph 63).

But it is true that the Holy Father seems to have doubts about macroevolution (in some of his writings, like this one linked above).

Phil P
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Not “even” the Church. The Church doesn’t normally pronounce on scientific matters, and it is no real threat to the soul if an individual believes in creationism, or unicorns, or that the moon is made of cheese. However the Pontifical Acadeny of Sciences keeps the church at the forefront of scientific development, and of course evolution is an important basic theory.

Creationists are a menace, because they give the impression that Christians are either stupid or, if you are like Richard Dawkins and have heard of the Pontiifcal Academy of Sciences, that the creationists are the real Christians and the Catholic position is some sort of intllectual sophistry designed to reconcile two mutaully opposed positions.

Evolution does raise some very serious isses for theology. However it is much more of a problem for the secular left, who are creationists when it comes to the evolution of human behaviour. The notion that human actions are, almost always, designed to propagate genes accords perfectly with the words of Our Lord. “Hypocrites!”
 
trth_skr said:
The debate goes on in Europe, as this story picks up steam.

Considering that Poland is one of the few truly Catholic countries left in Europe, it may be up to them (and the Vatican) to initiate debate on this topic. Poland may do for Europe today what Ireland did in previous times.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
Click to expand...
The debate goes on in Europe??!! Picks up steam! PICKS UP STEAM!!?? What wishful thinking! Google News the following search term: “Orzechowski evolution” and you get just two, yes TWO hits. One from a rag called ‘The Daily News and Analysis of India’, the other from ‘Gulf Daily News, Bahrain’. No traction from the Times, or The Financial Times, or Le Monde, or Le Figaro, or Die Welt, or Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, or La Repubblica, or La Stampa, or El Mundo, or El Pais, or Berlingske Tidenede, or Dagens Nyheter, or De Volkskrant, or Katholiek Nieuwsblad. No traction even from Polish newpapers such as Gazeta Wyborcza or Nasz Dziennik (catholic)

The fact is that Orzechowski’s ignorant and silly comments, if he indeed he ever made them, have sunk utterly and instantly without trace as they deserve.

It’s hard to expect anything of more substance from a Sungenis acolyte.

Alec
evolutionpages.com/blog/evolution_blog.html
 
hecd2 said:
The debate goes on in Europe??!! Picks up steam! PICKS UP STEAM!!?? What wishful thinking! Google News the following search term: “Orzechowski evolution” and you get just two, yes TWO hits. One from a rag called ‘The Daily News and Analysis of India’, the other from ‘Gulf Daily News, Bahrain’. No traction from the Times, or The Financial Times, or Le Monde, or Le Figaro, or Die Welt, or Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, or La Repubblica, or La Stampa, or El Mundo, or El Pais, or Berlingske Tidenede, or Dagens Nyheter, or De Volkskrant, or Katholiek Nieuwsblad. No traction even from Polish newpapers such as Gazeta Wyborcza or Nasz Dziennik (catholic)

The fact is that Orzechowski’s ignorant and silly comments, if he indeed he ever made them, have sunk utterly and instantly without trace as they deserve.

It’s hard to expect anything of more substance from a Sungenis acolyte.

Alec
evolutionpages.com/blog/evolution_blog.html
Click to expand...
Your charm and warmth have not changed in the least, Alec.

Look, it’s a beginning, and with a new Pope, and one who has studied this issue, who knows how things may change.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
Malcolm_McLean said:
… The notion that human actions are, almost always, designed to propagate genes …
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That’s not quite what the theory says. Actions that create an advantage in propation of genes are selected for not designed.

Human actions are done for all sorts of reasons. While important for the individual most don’t impact the selection of genes in a population
 
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