Interesting Questions on Apostolic Visitation

[SisterSnowflake]

Vocations was the only forum where I figured this/these question(s) could potentially fit!

Brother JR, Byzcath, and some of our other “elders” will helpfully chime in!

Feasibly, could the Vatican require the Sisters in the U.S to go back to wearing the habit?

What types of “reforms” could potentially be required?

 

[SisterSnowflake]

Vocations was the only forum where I figured this/these question(s) could potentially fit!

Brother JR, Byzcath, and some of our other “elders” will helpfully chime in!

Feasibly, could the Vatican require the Sisters in the U.S to go back to wearing the habit?

What types of “reforms” could potentially be required?

Please make that “Brother JR, Byzcath, and some of our other “elders” will HOPEFULLY chime in!”

…and, if they do, I’m sure that it will be helpful, as well!

 

[bpbasilphx]

Just one thing about the religious habit.

For resons beyond my understanding, the garb of holy povery is VERY expensive.

(Though it is basically a uniform, and uniforms are always more expensive than other clothes.)

 

[Allen537]

The Vatican would have a difficult time making the case for it, canonically speaking. Especially if the order/congregation is of Pontifical Rite (the only authority higher than the general superior is the Pope himself). The Vatican typically avoids such cases of micro-management, especially give the PR problems it could cause here in the United States. I am sure the recommendation would be made in its final report, but it most likely won’t be a mandatory change.

Usually, this issue of religious habit is left to the discretion of the individual order/congregation. Keeping in mind the difficulty of assigning a habit to group that traditionally does not have one. (19/20th century norms do not count as “traditional”).

This is just one Friar’s opinion, I’m sure there will be others who see it differently.

I hope this helps.

 

[SisterSnowflake]

THANKS, Brother Allen!

I’m just wondering/pondering…I’ve heard many different speculations from Sisters from various communities, including “they will want us all to go back into the habit”, “they will want us all to go back to teaching school”, “they will want to disband us all”, “they will love everything we are currently doing”, “they approved our constitutions in the first place; if there were a problem, they wouldn’t have approved us”…and many more.

I’ve wondered how accurate AND how far-fetched some of these speculations could be in reality.

Thanks again.

God bless!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I hope this doesn’t sound snarky because it isn’t meant to be, but as somebody who had considered religious life in earlier years but later married, had children, and now at age 53 (after considering it the last 2 years or so and looking in to various orders who considered older vocations) is aware that it’s not going to happen for me. . .

IF I had been blessed enough to be currently living as a sister or nun (I know there’s a difference), the only thing that would have crossed my mind when hearing about the Visitation would have been, “What does the Vatican want me to do, and how can I best do what they ask?”

Rather than speculating about "Are they going to allow this, stop this, re-start this, etc., I would just be going on doing what I usually do and --it goes without saying–doing whatever was asked of me. If I was supposed to fill out a questionnaire, I would do so fully and quickly, and then go right back to doing whatever I was supposed to be doing, and I would continue to do so until the Vatican got back to me and said whatever they wished me to be doing–in which case, if it was what I was already doing I’d continue. If it turned out to be completely different from what I was doing, I would–without the slightest hesitation or complaint-- do whatever they asked of me, without question.

Maybe I’m showing my age or something, but I thought that it was we all (and especially those lucky enough to be consecrated religious) were supposed to do? God’s will as required of us in obedience to our superiors, done to the best of our ability??

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The Vatican would have a difficult time making the case for it, canonically speaking. Especially if the order/congregation is of Pontifical Rite (the only authority higher than the general superior is the Pope himself). The Vatican typically avoids such cases of micro-management, especially give the PR problems it could cause here in the United States. I am sure the recommendation would be made in its final report, but it most likely won’t be a mandatory change.

Usually, this issue of religious habit is left to the discretion of the individual order/congregation. Keeping in mind the difficulty of assigning a habit to group that traditionally does not have one. (19/20th century norms do not count as “traditional”).

This is just one Friar’s opinion, I’m sure there will be others who see it differently.

I hope this helps.

I have to chime in with my brother, Brother Allen on this one.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Let me add a bit more.

For me its not the habit, that is extra and I love that I have that option but…

If the habit was the single issue that made me pick one group over another then I think there would be something seriously wrong and I would hope and pray that my spiritual director would call me on it (and I am pretty sure that the one I had when I entered the Carmelites would have).

 

[SisterSnowflake]

Tantum Ergo - I agree with you! We are on the same side here! Also, the MAJORITY of Sisters I know would agree (though not all, of course).

Byz Cath - I don’t think it has to do with choosing a congregation by habit, or lack of one (which some people actually do, of coure)…I think your point is the same one I’ve heard many Sisters express…basically, “I hope they will look beyond the highly polarized habit issue and see the good we are doing”.

Thanks for your responses, everyone!

 

[Sister_Rose]

Just one thing about the religious habit.

For resons beyond my understanding, the garb of holy povery is VERY expensive.

(Though it is basically a uniform, and uniforms are always more expensive than other clothes.)

I think you are wrong on this account. I know the wool serge that many of the old habits were made of would be expensive today, but I don’t know of any sisters whose habits are still made of wool serge. Most habits now are made of cotton, wool, polyester blends. Most are not as elaborate as some of the old ones were. Most don’t have as much fabric as some of the old ones did. Sisters don’t usually have to many habits and they wear them a long time. Some of our sisters are still wearing habits that are about as old as I am, and I am beyond my twenties.

As far as the original question goes, I don’t think the habit is the main issue that the vatican has. If you are looking for areas of concern, they may be looking at the things that were mentioned in the “Esential Elements of Religious Life”. (I may not have the wording of that exactly right.) That is my impression. Probably no more educated impression though than yours. God bless.

 

[elizabeth_anne_1]

If you look at the website apostolicvisitation.org you can gain a lot of information about the phases of the visitation and can read the questionnaires. There is also an explanation by Cardinal Rode’ concerning the visitation.

 

[SisterSnowflake]

Thanks, Sister Rose & Elizabeth Anne.

I’ve actually read “Essential Elements”, and my Sisters & I have read and discussed the Instrumentum Laboris together.

The questions I posed earlier basically come from hearing many different people wondering about potential outcomes.

God bless!

 

[momv10]

I know the basic difference between Brothers, Monks and the Priesthood. I also understand the difference basically when you are a Friar.
One thing I have noticed is no matter what ones I have come into contact with, they all had a basic “uniform”.
Now I’m not a well traveled person so I can’t say with great certainty that all mens religious orders have “uniforms”. (I said some travel, not LOTS)

All I know for certain is the women I have met who I can say have inspired me with their expression of faith have all been wearing a habit.
I have known some who didn’t wear a habit and they and their tone always left me quite cold.
Again, maybe it’s because of me however, whenever I ask this of other gals quietly when we are having a private moment they too say the same thing.

I guess if you really wanted to prove women and mothers like me we are wrong on this then let’s try a small experiment shall we?

Let’s say you come up with a style you think will be the easiest for you to deal with and everyone in your order wear one for 1year. After that year see if you have had any different reactions from regular (not in a professed religious vocation) folks like me.

Maybe it will bring understanding to both side.

 

[Sister_Rose]

I have met quite a number of “non-habitted” religious who I found to be very inspiring. Many of them put me to shame, with their love of God and neighbor.

 

[redrosetea]

At various times we have had several different women religious employed by our parish

They were all such holy and kind sisters…We all loved them very dearly and when they had to move on ,it was such a wrench to loose them

We also have a vibrant young community of Dominicans wearing the habit near me…They were started by Mother Assumpta…They are wonderful…My children were taught by the Dominicans so I have a special affection for them…if I were to compare the two I would have to say different but equal

We are so blessed to have 3 Catholic schools in 5 Catholic schools in my area, and the best of them are taught by sisters

 

[redrosetea]

At various times we have had several different women religious employed by our parish

They were all such holy and kind sisters…We all loved them very dearly and when they had to move on ,it was such a wrench to loose them

We also have a vibrant young community of Dominicans wearing the habit near me…They were started by Mother Assumpta…They are wonderful…My children were taught by the Dominicans so I have a special affection for them…if I were to compare the two I would have to say different but equal

We are so blessed to have 5 Catholic schools in my area, and the best of them are taught by sisters

 

[sparkletina]

Just one thing about the religious habit.

For resons beyond my understanding, the garb of holy povery is VERY expensive.

(Though it is basically a uniform, and uniforms are always more expensive than other clothes.)

Say what? There are Discalced Carmelite Sisters near me (active, not cloistered). They have 1 very used habit for manual work, 1 medium habit for regular days, and 1 nice habit for Sundays & special days. That’s 3 habits; that’s it, and some of them are quite patched. Seriously, I don’t know a single layperson who only has 3 pieces of clothing hanging in their closet. So while one habit may be a little more expensive to make, they last for a long time & there are few of them. Many religious Sisters make their own habits, so that cuts down the cost too. Obviously, they are not made in China! These Carmelites might get a new item (like hose or wimple) at Christmas or a feast-day, but it’s not guaranteed. They take a vow of poverty, so they patch/mend and make things last as long as possible. I can honestly say most of my friends cast off clothing right & left and never mend a single thing. Even on the face of it habits may seem expensive, in the long run they are not.

 

[redrosetea]

Someone in their order might also make their habit

The nuns that taught my kids sewed their own, and they sewed beautifully… so all it would cost is material

 

[abort73catholic]

All I know for certain is the women I have met who I can say have inspired me with their expression of faith have all been wearing a habit.
I have known some who didn’t wear a habit and they and their tone always left me quite cold.
Again, maybe it’s because of me however, whenever I ask this of other gals quietly when we are having a private moment they too say the same thing.

I have met quite a number of “non-habitted” religious who I found to be very inspiring. Many of them put me to shame, with their love of God and neighbor.

I think this is personal experience, and a person surely cannot judge an entire group of people based on few encounters. My aunt is a nun. They wear black/white blouse/skirt most of the time, with a pin/necklace of their community’s symbol. Only a few of the older ones wear the veil yet. Many of them, when working or doing something in recreation(like playing a game or going to a movie), “dress down” (jeans, t-shirt, etc.). Depends on the situation. And I can tell you that she (along with every other nun at their community) is one of the most inspiring women I have ever met. She’s my hero.

So I, like some others have said, do not think that the habit is at the core. Yes, it may help others live their lives in the way of their order, but again, I believe that is a personal preference.