Interesting "rapture" argument

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WesleyF

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“And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.” (John 14:3)

This, rapture theorists argue, says that Jesus will have to come again and “rapture” us back into heaven.

I am interested in knowing how a Catholic would explain this verse. This verse only! I am aware that there are other verses which disprove the notion of a rapture before the Second (and Final) coming of Christ.
 
WesleyF said:
“And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.” (John 14:3)

This, rapture theorists argue, says that Jesus will have to come again and “rapture” us back into heaven.

I am interested in knowing how a Catholic would explain this verse. This verse only! I am aware that there are other verses which disprove the notion of a rapture before the Second (and Final) coming of Christ.
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If anything, this verse **disproves **the Rapture. Look at the chronology provided in the text:

  1. *]Ascension of Jesus. Here He goes and prepares a place for us in Heaven.
    *]The Second Coming of Christ. “I will come again …”
    *]**The Elect Go to Heaven. ** “…and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.”

    That order is important, because Catholics and virtually all orthodox Christians believe that we will be taken up into Heaven, but not through a secret Rapture, but with the grand Second Coming of Christ, and Judgment Day. This verse, and innumerable others, speak to that truth, while the “rapture” theory is the product of a 19th Century lunatic.
 
Agreed. Jesus speaks of taking us up to him & Judgement day as the same time frame. The Rapture theory says that there will be a secret 2nd coming in which the elect are taken up & the people left behind go through the tribulations & great pain. Then later there will be a THIRD coming of Jesus that will be public & the judgement comes. That is totally unbiblical! It has always been understood that we are to undergo the tribulations & await the 2nd coming in which Jesus overthrows the AntiChrist, judgement comes, & he establishes his Kingdom. There is nothing I have ever seen in the scriptures that says Christians are going to be able to skip out on all the painful parts, its just not biblical. He went through sufferings, we go through sufferings 7 join them to him on the cross. If he didnt skip the pain why would we think we can?
 
This says exactly what Catholics believe.
  1. Jesus ascended to heaven. (Acts ch.1)
  2. Jesus will return and judge the nations.
  3. Jesus will take the believers to heaven with him.
This one isn’t too hard.
 
autdrew said:
The Rapture theory says that there will be a secret 2nd coming in which the elect are taken up & the people left behind go through the tribulations & great pain. Then later there will be a THIRD coming of Jesus that will be public & the judgement comes. That is totally unbiblical!
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Correct. You can only work out such a scheme by using Matthew’s gospel and ignoring the same account in Luke’s gospel. In Luke’s account, Jesus is asked where those who are taken (in the blink of an eye) will be taken to, and He answers by saying where their bodies are, there shall the eagles (birds of prey) be. Unless you can formulate a heaven where bodies are preyed upon, a rapture doesn’t make any sense in terms of being snatched away and sent there.
 
Jesus will come in glory to judge the living and the dead and his Kingdom shall have no end.
 
Belloc_Fan said:
If anything, this verse **disproves **the Rapture. Look at the chronology provided in the text:

  1. *]Ascension of Jesus. Here He goes and prepares a place for us in Heaven.
    *]The Second Coming of Christ. “I will come again …”
    *]**The Elect Go to Heaven. ** “…and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.”

    That order is important, because Catholics and virtually all orthodox Christians believe that we will be taken up into Heaven, but not through a secret Rapture, but with the grand Second Coming of Christ, and Judgment Day. This verse, and innumerable others, speak to that truth, while the “rapture” theory is the product of a 19th Century lunatic.
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  1. If I am not mistaken, we Catholics believe we are taken up into heaven immediately after death (i.e. if we don’t go to hell). So it’s not Catholic teaching that we will be taken up into heaven after the second coming of Christ.

    In fact, at the second coming, heaven itself will come down to earth in the form of the new Jerusalem.
 
WesleyF said:
If I am not mistaken, we Catholics believe we are taken up into heaven immediately after death (i.e. if we don’t go to hell). So it’s not Catholic teaching that we will be taken up into heaven after the second coming of Christ.

In fact, at the second coming, heaven itself will come down to earth in the form of the new Jerusalem.
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Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. I meant only those still alive at the Second Coming. You’re right that particular judgment precedes general judgment at Judgment Day.
 
WesleyF said:
If I am not mistaken, we Catholics believe we are taken up into heaven immediately after death (i.e. if we don’t go to hell). So it’s not Catholic teaching that we will be taken up into heaven after the second coming of Christ.

In fact, at the second coming, heaven itself will come down to earth in the form of the new Jerusalem.
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Our *souls *are taken to heaven after death. Many protestants teach this as well. When our souls are re-united with the body at the Judgment, we will be taken into heaven, body and soul, complete.
 
awatkins69 said:
This says exactly what Catholics believe.
  1. Jesus ascended to heaven. (Acts ch.1)
  2. Jesus will return and judge the nations.
  3. Jesus will take the believers to heaven with him.
This one isn’t too hard.
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…and is reflected in the Apostle’s Creed
  1. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
  2. He will come again
  3. to judge the living and the dead
 
**Don’t fall into the Protestant’s fatal error of “THIS VERSE ONLY!”

Sacred Scripture is the Living Word of God, but was left purposefully incomplete by God Himself!

Read the last verse of the last Gospel;

“But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” (JN 21:25)

God’s will is only complete when combined with the Church He founded, the One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church! That is why Sacred Scripture can only be understood in it’s entirety, along with the Sacred Tradition & the Magisterium of the Catholic Church!**

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
Sigh.

Here is how I answered it today.
Here, Jesus was using an analogy from Jewish marriage. In John 14:2, Jesus says to the apostles that he will go and prepare a place for them. Does heaven lack any place that Jesus needs to go and prepare a place? No. In Jewish culture at that time, before marrying, the man had to go to his home and prepare a room for his bride. So here Jesus is hinting that he is getting ready to marry his bride, the church. And after the preparations are over, Jesus says, that he will “come again and take you to myself” (John 14:3), which means that he will marry his bride the church. Before Jesus’ death, the church had not yet been born. But after his death and resurrection, the church was born on the day of Pentecost and it was regarded as the body of Christ. That’s why Paul, when speaking about the union between husband and wife, refers to Christ and the church (Ephesians 5:31-32).
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Also, his coming and taking us to heaven can be understood as his coming and taking us to heaven after we die. That’s why we see in Ephesians 4:8, Christ leading a host of captives to heaven. When we die, Christ himself will “come” and take us to heaven. This verse speaks nothing about the so called “rapture”. As I mentioned, at the time of the “rapture”, the dead will be raised. And the dead are raised only on the last day.
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WesleyF said:
Sigh.

Here is how I answered it today.

Here, Jesus was using an analogy from Jewish marriage. In John 14:2, Jesus says to the apostles that he will go and prepare a place for them. Does heaven lack any place that Jesus needs to go and prepare a place? No. In Jewish culture at that time, before marrying, the man had to go to his home and prepare a room for his bride. So here Jesus is hinting that he is getting ready to marry his bride, the church. And after the preparations are over, Jesus says, that he will “come again and take you to myself” (John 14:3), which means that he will marry his bride the church. Before Jesus’ death, the church had not yet been born. But after his death and resurrection, the church was born on the day of Pentecost and it was regarded as the body of Christ. That’s why Paul, when speaking about the union between husband and wife, refers to Christ and the church (Ephesians 5:31-32).

Also, his coming and taking us to heaven can be understood as his coming and taking us to heaven after we die. That’s why we see in Ephesians 4:8, Christ leading a host of captives to heaven. When we die, Christ himself will “come” and take us to heaven. This verse speaks nothing about the so called “rapture”. As I mentioned, at the time of the “rapture”, the dead will be raised. And the dead are raised only on the last day.
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I agree with your first paragraph, and it is beautifully stated!

Concerning your second paragraph, the Church is married Christ in heaven and will accompany Him at His second advent to Israel. Revelation 19 speaks of this marriage and then the return of the Jesus.

**Revelation 19:7-8
Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Revelation 19:14
The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. **

Some apologetics that teach against the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church say that because of the “last day”, the Church will go meet the Lord as he is coming back to earth and then follow Him back to earth. They liken this to people going out of the city to meet their leader or dignitary and follow him back in. Revelation 19 says something different, the Church is already there in heaven, ready to be married. Then the return of Jesus to the earth.

Also, the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church depends on the great tribulation being the last 7 years prophetically decreed for the Jews and Jerusalem (as described in Daniel 9:24).
 
When I was a Southern Baptist, I was taught that the “rapture” would be a public event that would be witnessed by everyone. I was not taught a “secret rapture”. That said, I no longer believe in the “rapture” since I am a Catholic and finally know the Truth! 👍
 
WesleyF said:
“And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.” (John 14:3)

This, rapture theorists argue, says that Jesus will have to come again and “rapture” us back into heaven.

I am interested in knowing how a Catholic would explain this verse. This verse only! I am aware that there are other verses which disprove the notion of a rapture before the Second (and Final) coming of Christ.
Click to expand...
The verse doesn’t say Jesus will come and go away again leaving some behind, which is what the rapture theory teaches. Rapture theory would require that there be a third coming, which is not biblical.
The Catholic eschatology teaching is exactly what the Bible says, that He will come in Glory at the end of time to reign forever and that we will be with Him forever.
 
Whats the explaination of Daniel 12 1-4 and Joel 3, Simply that they are Old Testament?

The Old was fulfilled by the New, right?
 
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