Interesting set-up for Daily Mass

[benedictgal]

Last week my pastor implemented a strange configuration in the little room that we use for daily Mass (it also doubles as the cry-room on Sundays).

He decided to arrange the chairs choir-style (the faithful facing each other) with the ambo and altar facing one another as well. He said that the documents of the Church call for the faithful to be around the altar.

The set-up is not at all conducive to Mass. It may work for the Liturgy of the Hours, but, not for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It seems that the orientation is more horizontal, meaning that we are facing each other, instead of turning our focus towars the Lord.

It is also very distracting, especially if I am the one proclaiming the readings on a particular day. The way the room is configured, there is only one entrance and the ambo is within the line of sight of that entrance. People come in late and there is movement becasue the first credence table (where people are supposed to deposit an unconsecrated host if they are going to receive Our Lord) is about two feet away from the ambo. There is just no focus whatsoever.

My parochial vicar does not like the set-up at all. He has since begun celebrating Mass ad orientum in order to help us get the proper orientation. I choose to sit by the wide open space so that I can orient my body towards the altar. We had a visiting priest come celebrate Mass and he said the set-up was not at all conducive to celebrating the Holy Sacrifice.

I have since looked up all of the authoritative documents of the Holy See regarding the set up of the worship space and could not find anything to back up my pastor’s asertion. I even looked at the documents from the USCCB, which carry no weright because they were never even voted on, let alone make it to Rome for recognitio (Built on Living Stones; Art and Environment). I even called the USCCb, but, they were no help.

Is anyone familiar with this at all? I suspect that he got the idea from a magazine called Ministry and Liturgy, but, that is my gut feeling. I am hoping that this will pass and pass away soon.

 

[withwind]

I had similar experience before when visiting a parish. The pews on the right faced the ones on the left. Also, the chairs for priest and deacon were right in front of the altar.

 

[benedictgal]

I had similar experience before when visiting a parish. The pews on the right faced the ones on the left. Also, the chairs for priest and deacon were right in front of the altar.

At least the presidential chair in our set up is behind the altar. We had some visitors come for Mass and they complained. The regulars said that they don’t like having to look at each other while they are kneeling. It’s almost like we have a demagnetized compass. We’ve lost our orientation.

 

[John_Lilburne]

In what sense do the documents of the Church call for the faithful to be around the altar?

Who should be in the sanctuary? Priest, concelebrants, deacons, acolytes, altar servers, lectors. Some quotes from the General Instruction of the Roman Missal on this:
“294 … The priest celebrant, the deacon, and the other ministers have places in the sanctuary. Seats for concelebrants should also be prepared there. If, however, their number is great, seats should be arranged in another part of the church, but near the altar. …”.

“195. … Then the lector takes his own place in the sanctuary with the other ministers.”

“310. … Seats for the other ministers are to be arranged so that they are clearly distinguishable from those for the clergy and so that the ministers are easily able to fulfill the function entrusted to them.”

Who else is a minister? Cantors and choir?

So with a small congregation at daily Mass there could be more people in the sanctuary than out of it. Which would mean they would be gathered around the altar. Particular with what it says about the position of the priest’s chair in n. 310: “Thus the best place for the chair is in a position facing the people at the head of the sanctuary, unless …”.

 

[jmcrae]

Sorry, I’m stuck on trying to picture this.

I can visualize the choir-style set up, but I am trying to picture what you mean by the ambo and the altar facing each other. Are they at the same end of the room, or are they at opposite ends?

How is the seating oriented with regard to the altar and ambo? Are you sideways to the Altar?

I have seen a set up (which was not by design but more by accident) where the seating is actually choir seating (it’s a small Mass that takes place in the choir area), and the Altar and Ambo are next to each other at one end of the space. Both are facing outward, between the two choir sides. People also set up chairs in between, facing the Altar and Ambo.

============ - choir north​

@@@////////////// ] - ambo
@@@////////////// |+ |
@@@////////////// |__| - altar​

============ - choir south

 

[benedictgal]

In what sense do the documents of the Church call for the faithful to be around the altar?

Who should be in the sanctuary? Priest, concelebrants, deacons, acolytes, altar servers, lectors. Some quotes from the General Instruction of the Roman Missal on this:
“294 … The priest celebrant, the deacon, and the other ministers have places in the sanctuary. Seats for concelebrants should also be prepared there. If, however, their number is great, seats should be arranged in another part of the church, but near the altar. …”.

“195. … Then the lector takes his own place in the sanctuary with the other ministers.”

“310. … Seats for the other ministers are to be arranged so that they are clearly distinguishable from those for the clergy and so that the ministers are easily able to fulfill the function entrusted to them.”

Who else is a minister? Cantors and choir?

So with a small congregation at daily Mass there could be more people in the sanctuary than out of it. Which would mean they would be gathered around the altar. Particular with what it says about the position of the priest’s chair in n. 310: “Thus the best place for the chair is in a position facing the people at the head of the sanctuary, unless …”.

Here is where the waters get muddier than the Missisipi. Our daily Mass is, for all practical puroses, in the cry room, not inside the church proper.

There is no line of demarcation, if you will, since everytying is level. The way the room was set up was to have the altar at the center, up front, with the ambo on the right of the altar and the presidential chair on the left, much like a regular church configuration. There was an invisible line, if you will and the first row of chairs (with portable kneelers) was about three feet away from the altar. With the way the set up is now, the choir arrangment goes all the way to the point that there are chairs on either side of the crucifix, where before, the only items near the cruciffix were the altar, the ambo and the chair (although the chair was a bit father to the left).

I wish I could draw you the set-up. It’s just convoluted,.John and we are all peplexed as to our pastor’s line of reasoning.

 

[benedictgal]

Sorry, I’m stuck on trying to picture this.

I can visualize the choir-style set up, but I am trying to picture what you mean by the ambo and the altar facing each other. Are they at the same end of the room, or are they at opposite ends?

How is the seating oriented with regard to the altar and ambo? Are you sideways to the Altar?

I have seen a set up (which was not by design but more by accident) where the seating is actually choir seating (it’s a small Mass that takes place in the choir area), and the Altar and Ambo are next to each other at one end of the space. Both are facing outward, between the two choir sides. People also set up chairs in between, facing the Altar and Ambo.

============ - choir north​

@@@////////////// ] - ambo
@@@////////////// |+ |
@@@////////////// |__| - altar​

============ - choir south

Actually, it’s something like this:

Entrance to room
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx Choir East
XXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX

Ambo … Altar…Cross
-----------------------------------------Chair
xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Choir West

In other words, think of this as a hamburger. The buns on either side are the choir and the ambo, altar, crucifix and chair are like the hamburger meat. That’s about as elemental as I can make it.

Somehow, I can’t format it to look like what you drew, but, I thnk if you follow my hamburger analogy, it might make some sense.

 

[jmcrae]

Actually, it’s something like this:

               Entrance to room

Chairs to the east XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx
////////////////////////////XXXXXXXXXXX////////XXXXXXXXXXXX
//////////////r hosts////XXXXXXXXXXX////////XXXXXXXXXXXX
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//////////////////////////////Ambo//////////////////Altar//////Cross
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////Chair
Chairs to the west xxxxxxxxxx//////////xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
///////////////////////////xxxxxxxxxx//////////xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
///////////////////////////xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

That’s about as elemental as I can make it.

Okay - as soon as I opened it in edit mode, I saw exactly what you meant. I’ve added hash marks in white to signify the floor area and to space it out the way you had it set up.

 

[benedictgal]

Okay - as soon as I opened it in edit mode, I saw exactly what you meant. I’ve added hash marks in white to signify the floor area and to space it out the way you had it set up.

Now you know why we are all scratching our heads?

If it looks this complicated with stick figures, imagine seeing this thing in person.

The visiting priset said it was the most uncomfortable setting he had ever experienced.

 

[jmcrae]

Now you know why we are all scratching our heads?

If it looks this complicated with stick figures, imagine seeing this thing in person.

The visiting priset said it was the most uncomfortable setting he had ever experienced.

I agree - it’s weird as all get-out. Not the sort of thing you normally expect to come up with on purpose, with moveable furniture.

 

[benedictgal]

I agree - it’s weird as all get-out. Not the sort of thing you normally expect to come up with on purpose, with moveable furniture.

That’s why I’m trying to figure out just which authoritative document of the Holy See calls for this set-up. When he said that the documents called for this, I just looked at him with my eyes as big as saucers. Mind you, I had jost come back from St. Louis where I heard the Secretary to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments tell us that we needed to have a more vertical sense of the Mass and concentrate on the divine and offering an acceptable Sacrifice to the Father. In fact, just before he made his announcement, I told my pastor what I had learned. Imagine my shock when he came up with this configuration.

 

[PacoG]

In other words, think of this as a hamburger. The buns on either side are the choir and the ambo, altar, crucifix and chair are like the hamburger meat. That’s about as elemental as I can make it.

I am assuming since you are in South Texas, that would be a Whataburger? Since it’s that time of the year, an A-1 Thick and Hearty?

Sorry, I couldn’t resist the joke opportunity, my old college friend.

 

[Walking_Home]

Actually, it’s something like this:

Entrance to room
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx Choir East
XXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX

Ambo … Altar…Cross
-----------------------------------------Chair
xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Choir West

In other words, think of this as a hamburger. The buns on either side are the choir and the ambo, altar, crucifix and chair are like the hamburger meat. That’s about as elemental as I can make it.

Somehow, I can’t format it to look like what you drew, but, I thnk if you follow my hamburger analogy, it might make some sense.

---

Maybe your pastor has been influenced by the Neocatechumenals. This would also explain why your week-day Masses are not held in the Church proper.

 

[m134e5]

Ask him which documents of the Church call for the faithful to be around the altar?

 

[Lepanto]

a magazine called Ministry and Liturgy

I’ve seen this magazine.

 

[benedictgal]

---

Maybe your pastor has been influenced by the Neocatechumenals. This would also explain why your week-day Masses are not held in the Church proper.

No, the driving force behind having the Mass in the little room is to save on A/C costs. Although, I have yet to firgure that out since we are only there for about 1/2 a day. I don’t think he’s too keen on the Neocatechumenal movement.

He is out of town for about a three weeks so maybe he’ll have a change of heart, although, he is a big fan of Our Lady of the Angels in Los Angeles. He seems to want to base our new church on that model.

I realize that the hamburger analogy was a little strange, but, given the configuration and whatnaught, it was the only one that I tthought could best illustrate the scenario.

 

[ChemicalBean]

Our church often sets up its Daily Mass Chapel in a similar configuration, with 3 rows on the east and west walls facing inward. I think this could be called “antiphonal” seating. At one end is the altar and cross. At the other end is the ambo, close to the entrance and credence table with hosts. It actually works really well, making the most use of the space with the moveable furniture. Instead of lots of little tiny rows with separating aisles for communion, where the latecomers might stand in the back rather than march to the front looking for a place, it is easy to look down the long rows for an empty space, or ask everyone to slide down. There is only need for 1 central aisle for Communion. Sure, you probably turn your head to the right for half the mass, and then to the left, but it’s no big deal.

Also, a lot of monasteries use this setup with permanent stalls, so I’m sure it’s legal.

 

[Nechasin]

There is a Catholic Church that I went to for a wedding that the main church is setup like this. It is very confusing. This was a church that built a new building in 1999.

 

[benedictgal]

Our church often sets up its Daily Mass Chapel in a similar configuration, with 3 rows on the east and west walls facing inward. I think this could be called “antiphonal” seating. At one end is the altar and cross. At the other end is the ambo, close to the entrance and credence table with hosts. It actually works really well, making the most use of the space with the moveable furniture. Instead of lots of little tiny rows with separating aisles for communion, where the latecomers might stand in the back rather than march to the front looking for a place, it is easy to look down the long rows for an empty space, or ask everyone to slide down. There is only need for 1 central aisle for Communion. Sure, you probably turn your head to the right for half the mass, and then to the left, but it’s no big deal.

Also, a lot of monasteries use this setup with permanent stalls, so I’m sure it’s legal.

However, we only have one entrance to the little room and, for the past several days, it’s been a most uncomfortable set-up. The latecomers crowd into the east side and don’t feel at all comfortable crossing the space between the chair and the altar just to get to the other side.

The antiphonal setting works great if you are praying the Liturgy of the Hours. I experienced that in St. Louis. But, for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, you need a better orientation, meaning not just facing the altar, but, having your body in tune with the direction. We are not there to look at each other; we are there to worship God. For the priests to find this set-up unsettling (even one who isn’t exactly great friend with the GIRM) is troubling.

 

[jen_anderson]

I know this is an old post - but, I wondered: what do you do when the church is all topsy turvy? And you just feel confusion when you enter. It seems rude to say anything. I just get the feeling the Catholic church is disappearing.