Interfaith diablog with Muslims

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Peace_of_cake

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Hello all,

I am to start a diablog between Muslims and Catholics with some close friends. I have a decent working knowledge of Islam and so may not be aware of what most Catholics would like to ask our Muslim friends. Please feel free to post any questions you’d like posed. We are very close and so can be open and honest, so any question can be put forward, but let’s make it constructive please. I’ll post a link to the blog when the initial articles are ready, God willing.

Thank-you
 
Peace_of_cake said:
Hello all,

I am to start a diablog between Muslims and Catholics with some close friends. I have a decent working knowledge of Islam and so may not be aware of what most Catholics would like to ask our Muslim friends. Please feel free to post any questions you’d like posed. We are very close and so can be open and honest, so any question can be put forward, but let’s make it constructive please. I’ll post a link to the blog when the initial articles are ready, God willing.

Thank-you
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Hello & welcome to CAF ~

You left out your “religion” status on your profile - do you mind stating what your follow…???
 
I have an excellent knowledge of Islam, having an advanced degree in Art History specializing in Islamic Art.
It is my belief that anyone who thinks that they can truely have an interfaith discourse with Moslems, in the same way that Catholics and Protestants do, is naive. The reason is that Islam teaches that they are the one and only true faith, and all others including the “people of the book” are in error and have no rights. A view, I might add, taught by Holy Mother the Church prior to Vatican II.
Even American converts to Islam are suspect by Arab and Irani Moslems because they read the Koran in translation, and it is stated in the commentaries of the Koran that is should be read only in Arabic, and that all prayers must be said in that language because Arabic is Allahs tongue.
 
It is important that if you engage in dialog that you know what you believe, what they believe, and what is and what is not subject to compromise in terms of faith. For example, three times in the most authoritative Surah of the Qur’an, Surah 5 has Allah saying:

• They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help (Qur’an 5:72)

• They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (Qur’an 5:73)

• Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (Qur’an 5:75)

Remembering that Surah 5 is the most authoritative and cannot be “abrogated” and is the “uncreated word of Allah,” those quotes fromt the Qur’an will NEVER mean anything other than they state. That is, that the god of Islam rejects, in absolute terms, 3 times, the Christian concept on the nature of God.

You can agree to disagree but, on this, you can agree on little else!

SirStephen
 
Peace_of_cake said:
Hello all,

I am to start a diablog between Muslims and Catholics with some close friends. I have a decent working knowledge of Islam and so may not be aware of what most Catholics would like to ask our Muslim friends. Please feel free to post any questions you’d like posed. We are very close and so can be open and honest, so any question can be put forward, but let’s make it constructive please. I’ll post a link to the blog when the initial articles are ready, God willing.

Thank-you
Click to expand...
Is your hope to show them the error of their ways and convert them to Christianity? If not, why are you engaging muslims in religious “diablog”?
 
Peace_of_cake said:
Hello all,

I am to start a diablog between Muslims and Catholics with some close friends. I have a decent working knowledge of Islam and so may not be aware of what most Catholics would like to ask our Muslim friends. Please feel free to post any questions you’d like posed. We are very close and so can be open and honest, so any question can be put forward, but let’s make it constructive please. I’ll post a link to the blog when the initial articles are ready, God willing.

Thank-you
Click to expand...
Interesting idea. I’m eagerly awaiting the first batch of posts.

Here are my questions:
  • How do you reconcile the Qur’an’s characterization of the trinity as consisting of three gods and including Mary with orthodox Christian teaching?
  • What are the three best arguments in favour of the prophethood of Muhammad (not against any doctrines about Christ) which also exclude the founders of Mormonism and the Bahá’í faith from making a credible claim to our acceptance?
 
Thank-you for the replies, it has mainly highlighted some of the misconceptions held by many people. God willing all will be addressed in some way. As has been said the trinity is not going to be something we agree on, but since it’s a different faith then there will always be areas were we never agree.

One question that I wouldn’t mind a bit of elaboration was the one about the claim of prophethood by Muhammad. There was some link with Joseph Smith??? I am not sure what you are suggesting. Please explain.

Thank-you
 
Peace_of_cake said:
Thank-you for the replies, it has mainly highlighted some of the misconceptions held by many people.
Click to expand...
Which misconceptions have been highlighted?
As has been said the trinity is not going to be something we agree on, but since it’s a different faith then there will always be areas were we never agree.
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If this was addressed at me: I didn’t bring it up because I wanted a debate on the trinity, which we know about through revelation and not reason.

I suggested that a discussion take place of how the Qur’an, a book that is held to be the word of God, can so gravely err as to claim that the Christian doctrine of the trinity involves three gods and Mary as one of them.
One question that I wouldn’t mind a bit of elaboration was the one about the claim of prophethood by Muhammad. There was some link with Joseph Smith??? I am not sure what you are suggesting. Please explain.
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The question I proposed was fairly complex, so let’s restate it:

What are the three best arguments, in light of the following caveat, in favour of the prophethood of Muhammad (not against any doctrines about Christ)? These three arguments must support the prophethood of Muhammad but not prove too much by applying to other men who have claimed prophethood, such as the founders of Mormonism and the Bahá’í faith.
 
Again thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut because it gives me an idea where most of us are coming from.
Trebor135 said:
Which misconceptions have been highlighted?
Click to expand...
The blog’s purpose is to deal with this, so I’ll not put any details here. However there is something - although worthy of mention - a little off in each post. Just taking the first one and the point made about Islam teaches exclusive salvation. Muslims do not believe all non Muslims are in hell in fact they see virtually all non Muslims as innocent since they do not know - conscious rejection being a condition of disbelief. However they are not perrenialists, but then this is a very modern idea which is contrary to classical belief systems including Catholicism. If ones faith doesn’t save only then why not convert? They are not sectarian as some Protestant groups as I’ve mentioned and so the suggestion that interfaith cannot be done is false… And also the poster may have different views of what interfaith means.
I suggested that a discussion take place of how the Qur’an, a book that is held to be the word of God, can so gravely err as to claim that the Christian doctrine of the trinity involves three gods and Mary as one of them.
Click to expand...
As above. However may I just point out that verse doesn’t refer to all Christians… Some Christians have held that position; the debate on Christology etc rages to this day.
The question I proposed was fairly complex, so let’s restate it:
Click to expand...
What are the three best arguments, in light of the following caveat, in favour of the prophethood of Muhammad (not against any doctrines about Christ)? These three arguments must support the prophethood of Muhammad but not prove too much by applying to other men who have claimed prophethood, such as the founders of Mormonism and the Bahá’í faith.
Click to expand...
You haven’t really elaborated, but… Some things spring to mind that a muslim may say:
  1. Muhammad is arguably the most influential person in world history. He founded a truly world religion which has proven successful in every time and place it’s been. The faiths you mention can’t claim this.
  2. Muhammad had countless miracles like splitting the moon and speaking in any language etc this is the proof of any prophet. Again Smith etc can’t claim this
  3. Muhammad exhibited exception character inwardly and outwardly in every field, giving birth to outstanding works of art poetry spirituality wisdom etc Again only a handful of faith can claim this sort of thing, Mormonism Bahai (which is a wayward Islamic sect anyway) et are not among them.
Anyway, I’ll desist from putting thought provoking responses since that’s the blog’s purpose. Please keep them coming 🙂
 
I have to say I was confused that my religion - given the question - was of any significance, neither can I see how heretical groups impact on Catholicism???

Anyway, in 7th century Arabia the Collyridian sect is known to have been fairly prevalent. The name comes from the Greek ‘kollyris’ meaning ‘loaf of bread’ because of their practice of offering bread upto Mary as a goddess. Muslim commentators have also mentioned a story of Christians from Najran visiting with these Collyridian beliefs as the reference to the verse.

This area does definitely need addressing. Does anyone also have some areas that need to be defended? Things Muslims misunderstand?

Please keep them coming 🙂
 
Peace_of_cake said:
I have to say I was confused that my religion - given the question - was of any significance, neither can I see how heretical groups impact on Catholicism???

Anyway, in 7th century Arabia the Collyridian sect is known to have been fairly prevalent. The name comes from the Greek ‘kollyris’ meaning ‘loaf of bread’ because of their practice of offering bread upto Mary as a goddess. Muslim commentators have also mentioned a story of Christians from Najran visiting with these Collyridian beliefs as the reference to the verse.

This area does definitely need addressing. Does anyone also have some areas that need to be defended? Things Muslims misunderstand?

Please keep them coming 🙂
Click to expand...
I took have several areas that need addressing. I also have good muslims friends, and because of them, I came to know lots about Islam and where I believe it went wrong.
I have told my friends also that the Quranic view of Christianity was influenced by some Christian heretics prevalent in Arabia at the times of their prophet and before.

Well, I am looking forward to your site and to participate in dialogue if possible.

God bless
 
Frere said:
I took have several areas that need addressing. I also have good muslims friends, and because of them, I came to know lots about Islam and where I believe it went wrong.
I have told my friends also that the Quranic view of Christianity was influenced by some Christian heretics prevalent in Arabia at the times of their prophet and before.

Well, I am looking forward to your site and to participate in dialogue if possible.

God bless
Click to expand...
The diablog is not really about highlighting where the other whent wrong, but simply stating how we all view thing. That said we both are not going to shy away from the academic truth, but we’ll leave the judgement to the reader. So we may indeed mention heretical groups at the time and may say generally this is how Catholics have tried to explain Islam (also we’ll mention more favourable explanations like the mystical fulfilment of the prophecy of the people of Ishmael) but this won’t come without a mention of how Muslims may deny such claims. Just in the same way Muslims may explain Catholicism’s ‘erroneous’ beliefs as the early pagan converts overpowering the Jewish Christians and introducing prevalent pagan ideas etc. It’s about trying to understand…

In terms of contribution: you (and anyone else) can ask questions here or write little articles on a poignant area, but of course it needs moderation. The diablog will allow comments on each ‘article’ of course and here you may directly comment.

Will keep you posted
 
Peace_of_cake said:
The blog’s purpose is to deal with this, so I’ll not put any details here. However there is something - although worthy of mention - a little off in each post. Just taking the first one and the point made about Islam teaches exclusive salvation. Muslims do not believe all non Muslims are in hell in fact they see virtually all non Muslims as innocent since they do not know - conscious rejection being a condition of disbelief. However they are not perrenialists, but then this is a very modern idea which is contrary to classical belief systems including Catholicism. If ones faith doesn’t save only then why not convert? They are not sectarian as some Protestant groups as I’ve mentioned and so the suggestion that interfaith cannot be done is false… And also the poster may have different views of what interfaith means.
Click to expand...
Ahh, interesting example. And thanks for clarifying.
As above. However may I just point out that verse doesn’t refer to all Christians… Some Christians have held that position; the debate on Christology etc rages to this day.
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Those who believe in three gods and worship Mary as a deity aren’t Christian. Would you suggest the following with a straight face to a Muslim: “Some Muslims have held the position that the founder of the Bahá’í faith is a true prophet of God [even though Muhammad was supposed to be his final messenger according to Islam]; the debate on prophethood rages to this day”?
You haven’t really elaborated, but… Some things spring to mind that a muslim may say:
  1. Muhammad is arguably the most influential person in world history. He founded a truly world religion which has proven successful in every time and place it’s been. The faiths you mention can’t claim this.
  2. Muhammad had countless miracles like splitting the moon and speaking in any language etc this is the proof of any prophet. Again Smith etc can’t claim this
  3. Muhammad exhibited exception character inwardly and outwardly in every field, giving birth to outstanding works of art poetry spirituality wisdom etc Again only a handful of faith can claim this sort of thing, Mormonism Bahai (which is a wayward Islamic sect anyway) et are not among them.
Click to expand...
Anyway, I’ll desist from putting thought provoking responses since that’s the blog’s purpose. Please keep them coming 🙂
Click to expand...
I would offer a response to the above but I shall fulfill your request in the last paragraph. Suffice it to say that the above arguments that Muslims might offer are built on sand; though they might be useful against Mormonism and the Bahá’í faith, double standards are required for them to work in other contexts.
 
Can Muslims and Christians pray with each other, and can they pray for each other. My thoughts behind this question are to do with communities living in tension and conflict.

Blessings

Eric
 
Those who believe in three gods and worship Mary as a deity aren’t Christian. Would you suggest the following with a straight face to a Muslim: “Some Muslims have held the position that the founder of the Bahá’í faith is a true prophet of God [even though Muhammad was supposed to be his final messenger according to Islam]; the debate on prophethood rages to this day”?
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I guess it depends on how you define things. If you go with Christians are whoever say they are then Christianity is a very broad topic! I take your point about Mary, but that said the verse in question is 5:116, which actually just exonerates the Muslim Jesus from any wrongdoing rather than calling Christians Mariolaters etc its implicit not explicit.
I would offer a response to the above but I shall fulfill your request in the last paragraph. Suffice it to say that the above arguments that Muslims might offer are built on sand; though they might be useful against Mormonism and the Bahá’í faith, double standards are required for them to work in other contexts.
Click to expand...
Hmm still not getting this question? Ok let’s rework it and say how would Christians argue the case for Jesus’ prophethood? Leaving trinity aside one might point to Jesus being the founder of a world religion, possessed many miracles and exemplary character gave birth to outstanding works of mysticism etc. So are these built on sand? Like I said I’m not really sure what you’re trying to get at.
 
George_Stegmeir said:
I have an excellent knowledge of Islam, having an advanced degree in Art History specializing in Islamic Art.
It is my belief that anyone who thinks that they can truely have an interfaith discourse with Moslems, in the same way that Catholics and Protestants do, is naive. The reason is that Islam teaches that they are the one and only true faith, and all others including the “people of the book” are in error and have no rights. A view, I might add, taught by Holy Mother the Church prior to Vatican II.
Even American converts to Islam are suspect by Arab and Irani Moslems because they read the Koran in translation, and it is stated in the commentaries of the Koran that is should be read only in Arabic, and that all prayers must be said in that language because Arabic is Allahs tongue.
Click to expand...
Hi George Stegmeir,

Very true, in the United States the majority of Muslims are Sunni and not Shiite and also the majority only speak and teach the Qur’an in Arabic and not in Farsi. Some Shiite, do take classes to speak in Arabic but very few in number - there are many who don’t attend the mosque, I think, because of this. On Friday and Saturday, it is prayer and then on Sunday many come together to spend time with their families. At one time, I was able to speak with the prayer leader, as he use to be a professor out here at one time but later he moved to the Chicago mosque - and I really didn’t keep up with the communication.

Many of college students that I’ve meant, at one time, were more inquisitive on their end then on ours but recognition as students and their major degree is very important to them - some come to study and then go back home. You would be surprised at the number of times they call home - just to speak with their family members. Remembering how close our family is to each other, I found that they are closer. Sometimes when they call home - its very sad to hear how much they miss them - the tears.

Awhile - I was joking around with someone who came from Kuwait, a foreign exchange student, who told me that he was getting married and so I congratulated him and asked when the official date was but the only thing that was on his mind was that he hoped that his family picked out a nice beautiful girl for him. I couldn’t help but laugh - I asked if he was close to his father? We got into a discussion about the Arabian Gulf - and I told him that I thought they called it the Iranian Gulf - the answer: “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.” - when you’re on the Arab side it the Arabian Gulf and when you’re on the Iranian side…

Blessings,
Mary
 
Eric_Hyom said:
Can Muslims and Christians pray with each other, and can they pray for each other. My thoughts behind this question are to do with communities living in tension and conflict.

Blessings

Eric
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Muslims will pray for others outside of their own faith but can you and them pray together? Where? In your home or in theirs? At your church or in their mosque? If you know of a close friend who is Muslim, ask them! Pray to God and ask him to open up the door. The tension and conflict in the community only makes others tense which will make the conversation get so misconstrued. Have you ever walked into a room full of people that knew nothing about the Catholic faith or misunderstood the teachings? The feeling around the room is that you were a non christian because of it? The atmosphere will be full of tension and will be cold - and it will make you and those around you feel the same – break the ice and tell a joke.
 
Eric and MorningSong51

Nice comments Morningsong51 👍 Think breaking the ice and just getting to know each other really helps

It is a good question Eric. Initially I would have said that acts of worship are often where we draw the line, as the Qur’an says ‘you have your religion and I have mine.’ That said it is God that unites us, as attested by NA and the Qur’an, since we are united by God then surely we should be praying with each other? In principle this isn’t then really as problem, but in practice there are norms that would be unacceptable to each, such as saying ‘in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost’ or ‘Peace and blessings on Muhammad,’ etc. Given the above then I guess we could supplicate together providing we chose appropriate wording?

No reason why we can’t pray for each other… and not just to be guided either. After death when they have died in a state supposedly of unbelief and praying for their salvation might be a problem mind.
 
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