Interfaith diablog with Muslims

[Peace_of_cake]

SirStephen:
It is true I do have a habit of sounding condescending. Please everyone forgive me. It is not intended.
Stephen, I believe you’ve ruined my thread! It was really meant for questions not lots of opinions. Admittedly I also havent helped there.
If you want to discuss something then just one thing at a time. The problem is, I honestly don’t believe we can converse. Things like confusing fitna with fitra is just painfully wrong and the you go and make mockery of me while in actual fact have made yourself appear very foolish. No one that had read an iditos guide to Islam would make that mistake, so be honest you havent formally studied a thing have you?
As such then tone down your answers and instead ask questions and bring up something when you dont understand. I know this sounds patronising, but with your posts it becomes clear I’m the teacher. Just like if we discuss the melting point of steal relative to Aeroplane fuel - re: 9/11 conpiracy theories - when I’m a mechanical engineer and you are not.

Just since I’m here I’ll write a little something on what you posted last. Maybe it will be some help

All four orthodox schools … recognize abrogation.

You have misunderstood my point. I said that the abrogation by the sword verse is not held by the Sunni schools of law. Some commentators have said it does abrogate, but since they are not a Mujtahid Mutlaq of their own school then they merely hypothesising. Interestingly abrogation doesn’t mean cancelling out the previous ruling, but rather giving precedence or adding detail. So even if abrogate the previous rule holds but just now in a limited sense.

As for taqiya, in the “Part IV” of my last overlarge entry, I actually cited Ghazali from a text of Islamic law on the requirement to lie. So, you are correct!

You have really misread what Ghazali said, just re-read it a few times. There is the famous Prophetic narration that a Muslim musn’t lie even in jest. Firstly Ghazali is saying tell the truth, in matters of mere permissiblity (i.e. not obligatory, forbidden, recommended or hated) one can mislead through telling the truth, and in dire situations one can say a lie. Giving an example: if a mad axe murderer asks me where my children are I might say ‘try the garage’ knowing full well they are not there, but by saying ‘try’ I am not actually lying. This is preferable. However since this particular situation is a matter of life and death (one of the key principles behind Shariah Law is preservation of life) then I could lie and say something like: ‘they are in the garage.’ This is completely reasonable and not really anything like what you read into it.
To be honest Tarqiyyah in the deceptive way your are suggesting is really a Shia’ thing and just alien to Sunni Islam.
I don’t know why you are so paranoid about the US government or Muslims???

Why would a government want to kill its own people? I know what has been said, but its totally absurd because this isn’t Moa’s China this is a civilised government. Its just absurd to even suggest it.
Also why would so many people be Muslim and it be the instigator of some truly magnicent gifts to humanity like the university system if it really were as you said it was? Like I keep trying to tell you, if you look at the facts the Muslims have far less violence to answer for than we do, in the previous century (the bloodiest in world history) on 2 to 3% of deaths were caused by Muslims, the Jews were safe during the holocaust and the majority of bombs dropped came from the US and Europe. Less than 1% of terrorism in Europe is cause by Muslim extremists (see Europol). History shows that they are a tolerant and peace loving people, of course they have had dark periods but the West has had far far more. Again its absurd

Anyway, please don’t write loads (I’m well aware of what you mention anyway so just hint at it) and loads. Try and fit it in a line
Go in peace

 

[SirStephen]

Peace of Cake,

Apologies on not reading “fitrah” incorrectly, I thought it was “fitna.” Otherwise I hold to what I said.

I am glad to see, having apologized for your condescending approach, that you “asked and answered” your own question about what I actually have studied and then told me to tone it down having concluded that I hadn’t. You do not know what I read, what I studied or how much. The very fact, however, that I can generate those citations from recognized sources means I must have read at least enough to have awareness of them, and enough familiarity to pull them down on recall.

I am not making a mockery of you; simply pointing out the points you make that can be demonstrated to be erroneous.

OBTW - The Catholic Church created the University system - this is pretty well and pretty heavily established.

Not only did I cite al-Ghazali correctly, but rather than taking it out of the text in which he wrote it, I chose instead to cite it out of a book of Islamic law using that citation to state the point of law.

I have said nothing that gives you cause to think that I am paranoid with regard to the USG or Muslims. You have made these rather bizarre comments a number of times.

You are right that Taqiya’s original use is Shia lying to avoid being exposed to persecution when living in larger Sunni communities but the term evolved to include the other meaning and is used in both communities. While telling “Lioness” that her understanding of taqiya was correct, because it was, I then cited al-Ghazili to demonstrate that larger requirement to lie exists not-with-standing the concept of Taqiya. I could easily provide more such citations!

You have a way of getting clobbered and then coming back by responding with obscurantisms that create the illusion that the responses I sent - with citations - did not dismantle your points. The reason I include the citations is because, as you noted, I think you DO know where they come from so you do understand their bona fides. Those taking note of the citations can Google or go to Amazon and find out that I am not misstating anything.

Here is a quiz for you! A few days ago, you spoke of 2:256 and noted “no compulsion in religion.” I gave an explanation that answered the question. Also, in the last two notes, you stated that you wanted to discontinue the discussion with me in an interesting manner similar to other things I’ve heard. So, here is the quiz, with the two quotes, can you identify the source?

• When writers with defeatist and apologetic mentalities write about “Jihaad in Islam,” trying to remove this ‘blot’ from Islam, then they are mixing up two things: first, that this religion forbids the imposition of its belief by force, as is clear from the verse, “There is no compulsion in religion”(2:256), while on the other hand it tries to annihilate all those political and material powers which stand between people and Islam, which force one people to bow before another people and prevent them from accepting the sovereignty of God. These two principals have no relation to one another nor is there room to mix them.

• The chasm between Islam and Jahiliyyah is great, and a bridge is not to be built across it so that the people on the two sides may mix with each other, but only so that the people of Jahiliyyah may come over to Islam, whether they reside in a so-called Islamic country and consider themselves Muslims or they are outside the ‘Islamic’ country, in order that they may come out of darkness into light and may get rid of their miserable condition, and enjoy those blessings which we have tasted-we who have understood Islam and live in its atmosphere. If not, then we shall say to them what God commanded His Messenger - peace be on him-to say: “For you your way, for me mine.” (109:6)

Take care!

SCC

 

[Peace_of_cake]

• When writers with defeatist and apologetic mentalities write about “Jihaad in Islam,” trying to remove this ‘blot’ from Islam, then they are mixing up two things: first, that this religion forbids the imposition of its belief by force, as is clear from the verse, “There is no compulsion in religion”(2:256), while on the other hand it tries to annihilate all those political and material powers which stand between people and Islam, which force one people to bow before another people and prevent them from accepting the sovereignty of God. These two principals have no relation to one another nor is there room to mix them.

• The chasm between Islam and Jahiliyyah is great, and a bridge is not to be built across it so that the people on the two sides may mix with each other, but only so that the people of Jahiliyyah may come over to Islam, whether they reside in a so-called Islamic country and consider themselves Muslims or they are outside the ‘Islamic’ country, in order that they may come out of darkness into light and may get rid of their miserable condition, and enjoy those blessings which we have tasted-we who have understood Islam and live in its atmosphere. If not, then we shall say to them what God commanded His Messenger - peace be on him-to say: “For you your way, for me mine.” (109:6)

You seem to have a peculiar concept that the outward text on a paper has truth??? Surely the meaning is what makes something true, wouldn’t you agree. This is why in academic papers they rarely quote something and instead paraphrase to show they’ve understood.
It may seem harsh over a simple misreading of fitnah / fitrah, but given the context my friend it is very problematic.
OK to your quiz… Of course I’m just a man and so I don’t know That said, the latter has used Jahiliyyah in a very strange was reminisent of Sayyid Qutb or Mawdudi. Not so sure about the first one, but it could also be some Muslim Brotherhood rubbish. I don’t know? I’ll say they’re both by Sayyid Qutb?
Incidentally the MB aren’t really Sunni Muslim, so if this whole conversation was about the MB then we’d probably have more in common. Its important to make these distinctions otherwise we might blame the Pope for a fundi Christian shooting a doctor at an abortion clinic!?! Of course the MB is a very diverse group and so its quite hard to even generalise them. Someone like Abdullah bin Bayyah is very much a bastion of Islamic Orthodoxy, someone like Yusuf al Qaradawi is a bit off and Qutb isnt even close!
Anyway, God knows best
Oh BTW think its just yopu and me now on this thred. Guess we better play nice
Just thought if it is MB quotes then you have invented a new game… name that loon
I have one for you (clue not a MB psycho):
‘What is justice? To put something in the right place. What is injustice? To put something in the wrong place.’