Interfaith Eucharist

[mtoon]

I think you forgot one small detail. The Eastern Churches are part of the Catholic Church. Therefore, it is rather odd for you to say that the Church recognizes Eastern sacraments if we are one in the same (different rites, but the same Church). If circumstances warrant, I, as a Latin Rite Catholic, can fulfill my Sunday and/or Holy Day of Obligation Mass at a Byzantine Church. The Byzantines can fulfill their obligations at a Latin Rite Church. Why? We are all under the umbrella of Peter.

The bottom line to the OP is the fact that the Church does not recognize the “communion” offered by the Protestant ecclesial communities because she does not recongize the validity of their form of Holy Orders since they have no apostolic succession. The Orthodox are an entirely different matter, as the Church calls them Sister Churches and does not refer to them as Ecclesial Communities.

1.) There is one HUGE difference between the Eastern Catholic churches and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches I have been speaking of. The Eastern Catholic churches are in perfect communion with the Pope of Rome, the Orthodox are not, for a myriad of reasons.

2.) I NEVER said nor did I infer “that the Church recognizes Eastern sacraments if we are one in the same.” You should apologize for failing to tell the truth.

3.) Circumstances need not “warrant” an Eastern Catholic (Byzantine or other) of fulfilling their Sunday obligation by attending Mass, nor a Latin Rite Catholic fulfilling their Sunday obligation by attending one of the Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies. They are free to do so at any time.

4.) The “bottom line” is that I posted a valid analogy. I am sorry you lack the ability to understand and/or recognize that.

5.) The Orthodox (depending on the specific church) DO NOT RECOGNIZE the Catholic Church as having valid communion. I already stated that the Catholic Church allows Catholics to receive communion at Orthodox Church. It’s THEY who do not allow Catholics to receive. That’s ANALOGOUS to the Anglicans allowing individual Anglicans to receive communion in the Catholic Church, yet the Catholic Church does not allow them too.

 

[mtoon]

That is true in the sense that it is not a regular practice. However, if we do find ourselves in an area where a Latin Rite or some other Rite in communion with Rome is not available, then, under those circumstances can we receive Holy Communion from an Eastern Orthodox Church.

No way. The Catholic Church would be fine with us doing so, but except in the case of dire emergency the Orthodox churches would not allow it.

Now, when I lived in Austin, there was (and still is) a Greek Orthodox Church, St. Elias. Although I never set foot in it (I probably should have, at least just to see what it looked like), it would not have made any sense for me to receive Holy Communion from their Church since Austin has a plethora of Catholic Churches. But, if I were visiting Greece and was not in an area where there were any Latin Rite or Eastern Rite (communion with Rome) churches, then, I would have to go to a Greek Orthodox Church, out of pure necessity.

No way. Maybe if you were dying or seriously ill and your prognosis was not good, else no way. Much like the situation of a gravely ill Anglican wanting to receive communion with only Catholic Churches available – they too would be allowed.

I can’t say the same for the Anglicans, though. I did manage to set foot inside St. David’s because Cardinal Cassidy (who was one of the point prelates on ecumenism) had been invited to speak at the Episcopal ecclesial community. However, it was just that, a speech. There was no real prayer service involved. However, to go to one of their services just to go and then receive their version of communion is something that the Church is against. In fact, doing so would have caused scandal, especially if those present knew that I was Catholic.

Not true, on several accounts. Your were free to attend, you could not receive communion because the Catholic Church says you couldn’t. The Episcopalians would have welcomed you – zero “scandal.”

You are right in the first point you raised. The Russian Orthodox Church is highly suspect of us and has accused us of trying to invade their turf, so to speak.

So are other Orthodox churches.

I guess my bone of contention was that in the Anglican analogy, there needs to be a distinction regarding validity. We don’t recognize the validity of their ordinations. Hence, without a valid ordination (which lacks Apostolic Succession since it was broken), there can be no valid Eucharist.

Then you missed it as not all Orthodox view the Catholic communion as being valid.

 

[benedictgal]

No way. The Catholic Church would be fine with us doing so, but except in the case of dire emergency the Orthodox churches would not allow it.

No way. Maybe if you were dying or seriously ill and your prognosis was not good, else no way. Much like the situation of a gravely ill Anglican wanting to receive communion with only Catholic Churches available – they too would be allowed.

Not true, on several accounts. Your were free to attend, you could not receive communion because the Catholic Church says you couldn’t. The Episcopalians would have welcomed you – zero “scandal.”

So are other Orthodox churches.

Then you missed it as not all Orthodox view the Catholic communion as being valid.

First of all, just out of curiousity, how would an Orthodox priest know that I was from the Catholic Church?

Second, I know full well that the Church does not recognize the communion of these ecclesial communities. It is not my desire to receive “communion” at any of these ecclesial communities precisely because I am Catholic and it is wrong. Were a Catholic to receive “communion” at an Anglican Church it would most definitely cause scandal because the Catholic would be affirming something that the Church does not approve. That is where the scandal lies.

Perhaps if you can produce some legitimate documentation from the Orthodox to make your case regarding the validty of sacraments.

 

[Aramis]

First of all, just out of curiousity, how would an Orthodox priest know that I was from the Catholic Church?

Quite simple, in most cases. Every Orthodox priest I’ve ever talked to asks, and also looks for knowledge that at least indicated what they perceive as orthopraxis.

If you are not an Eastern Catholic, odds are you’ll make the sign of the cross wrong.

If you approach for communion, and haven’t been to Vespers Saturday night, followed by confession, then matins in the morning, you can expect to be refused.

If you do not reverence Icons the correct way…
If you do not know the tones…
If you do not know the current sunday (by either calendar) and which of the calendars you’re citing…

 

[mtoon]

Quite simple, in most cases. Every Orthodox priest I’ve ever talked to asks, and also looks for knowledge that at least indicated what they perceive as orthopraxis.

If you are not an Eastern Catholic, odds are you’ll make the sign of the cross wrong.

If you approach for communion, and haven’t been to Vespers Saturday night, followed by confession, then matins in the morning, you can expect to be refused.

If you do not reverence Icons the correct way…
If you do not know the tones…
If you do not know the current sunday (by either calendar) and which of the calendars you’re citing…

Many Orthodox (and Eastern Catholic) parishes are tiny too. If a priest does not know you, often times he or the deacon will have a quick word with you before liturgy, or at least a layperson will.

Even more important, the Catholic Church directs us to follow the rules of the Orthodox church we are visiting. If communion is closed to us, we are directed by the Catholic Church to follow their dictate, even if that means we must go without, UNLESS we get their (the Orthodox) express permission.

In fact, even though the Catholic Church allows all Eastern and Oriental Orthodox to receive communion, She warns the Orthodox to follow the directions set by their respective churches.

The comment about the Orthodox priest not knowing if the person was Orthodox reminds me of Protestants who glibly claim to receive communion in Catholic parishes “because no one knows the difference.” That maybe be true, but that doesn’t make it right.

 

[jmcrae]

That is true in the sense that it is not a regular practice. However, if we do find ourselves in an area where a Latin Rite or some other Rite in communion with Rome is not available, then, under those circumstances can we receive Holy Communion from an Eastern Orthodox Church.

In theory. The reality is that they would not give it to you, because you are in communion with the Pope and not with them. They treat us and view us in much the same way that we treat and view Protestants, and even more so, because they don’t believe that we have any valid Sacraments, including Baptism - meaning that according to them, we’re not just heretics; we’re actual heathens.

But, if I were visiting Greece and was not in an area where there were any Latin Rite or Eastern Rite (communion with Rome) churches, then, I would have to go to a Greek Orthodox Church, out of pure necessity.

You could attend, but you would not be allowed to receive any Sacraments there, due to the fact that your Baptism is not recognized as valid.

I guess my bone of contention was that in the Anglican analogy, there needs to be a distinction regarding validity. We don’t recognize the validity of their ordinations. Hence, without a valid ordination (which lacks Apostolic Succession since it was broken), there can be no valid Eucharist.

And the analogy works because that’s pretty much what the Orthodox in schism think of us, too.

 

[mtoon]

…Were a Catholic to receive “communion” at an Anglican Church it would most definitely cause scandal because the Catholic would be affirming something that the Church does not approve. That is where the scandal lies…

Don’t kid yourself. A individual, confused Catholic is not about to affirm anything at a level were anyone would give a rip, unless he was part of the hierarchy.

 

[jmcrae]

Don’t kid yourself. A individual, confused Catholic is not about to affirm anything at a level were anyone would give a rip, unless he was part of the hierarchy.

You’d be surprised. I remember “counting coup” when we distributed Holy Communion in my old church, to see how many Catholics received it. We considered it a victory of sorts - - kind of “Hah!! Got 'em! They’re one of us, now.”

Of course we thought we were saving them from the clutches of superstition and legalism, and that they were being enlightened to freedom and truth.

 

[SMHW]

My understanding is that

An Anglican can except the sacrament from a Roman Catholic
Priest but The Roman Catholic priest can not give it to the Anglican

Roman Catholics are not allowed to recieve it from Anglican priests but Anglican priests are allowed to give it to them.

Is this right?

I’m going back to this original post because it was the origin of this discussion.

In general I think that the OP has the right idea but the choice of words leaves a bit to be desired, at least from a Catholic standpoint. It would be better to say ‘receive communion’ than to say ‘receive the sacrament’ because while both groups generally agree that the word ‘communion’ can be used for either groups’ practice, the Catholics would take issue with using the word ‘sacraments’ for what takes place in an Anglican church.

Catholics can except that those in attendance at an Anglican service “receive communion” even if the Catholics don’t recognize that Anglican communion is in fact a sacrament.

Under normal circumstances it’s analogous to most of the Orthodox churches. The Catholic Church allows them to receive communion in the Catholic Church, but their respective churches do not allow them to.

Similarly, the Catholic Church allows Catholics to receive communion in their churches, but they do not allow it.

Mtoon is using the terminology, “receive communion” to avoid the problems with the word “'sacraments”. As a Catholic I cannot speak for the Orthodox Churches but I am making the presumption that the Orthodox would consider the phrase “receive communion” to be acceptable terminology for what takes place in Anglican or Catholic services*.

Mtoon is attempting to make an analogy that is merely concerned with what each group believes about the other groups. As such, the analogy can be logically valid in spite of whether or not Anglicans, Catholics, and/or Orthodox have valid Holy Orders, Holy Eucharist, or some combination thereof. (Since we are using the word “validity” in reference to two unlike things, logic and sacraments, it will be useful to make sure we are careful to distinguish between the two usages.)

There doesn’t seem to be any real contention about the first part of the analogy concerning the beliefs of Catholics and Anglicans regarding permissions to receive communion in each others services.

For the analogy to be logically valid, two things must be true: (1) The Catholics would have to allow Orthodox to receive communion in Catholic Churches and likewise allow Catholics to receive communion in Orthodox churches. Under certain circumstances this is indeed the case. (We are overlooking details such as this only being acceptable when it is not possible to attend one’s own Mass/Diving Liturgy.) (2) The Orthodox would have to categorically deny Catholics communion at Orthodox Divine Liturgies and would also have to deny Orthodox the right to receive communion at Catholic Masses/Divine Liturgies.

It is my understanding that (2) is indeed true. so the logic of the analogy is valid.

** I know the word “services” has causes some controversy when used in regard to the Mass but I needed a word that was more general*.

 

[Aramis]

You could attend, but you would not be allowed to receive any Sacraments there, due to the fact that your Baptism is not recognized as valid.

Having been communed in both Coptic Orthodox and Russian Orthodox parishes where the priest KNEW I was a catholic…

It varies widely.

In both cases, I was expected to confess, first, and said opportunity was provided. In one case, before matins. The other, after vespers. (When stuck ina village, and staying with the chief, and the chief says “we all go to church now”, you go. The pastor inquired, I explained I was catholic, and no problem was seen by him nor I… nor the villagers.

It depends quite a lot on the circumstances.

 

[jmcrae]

Having been communed in both Coptic Orthodox and Russian Orthodox parishes where the priest KNEW I was a catholic…

It varies widely.

You’re right; that’s a good point. Not all Eastern Catholic churches are the same, and I don’t remember which ones are the ones that don’t recognize our Sacraments as being valid.

 

[mtoon]

You’re right; that’s a good point. Not all Eastern Catholic churches are the same, and I don’t remember which ones are the ones that don’t recognize our Sacraments as being valid.

If they are truly an Eastern Catholic church, that is, if they are truly in perfect communion with the Pope of Rome, then they obviously recognize the Catholic Church’s sacraments as being valid.

 

[jmcrae]

If they are truly an Eastern Catholic church, that is, if they are truly in perfect communion with the Pope of Rome, then they obviously recognize the Catholic Church’s sacraments as being valid.

Whups. Did I type that?

I meant Eastern Orthodox.

 

[East_Anglican]

An Anglican is permitted by his community to receive in the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church does not permit an Anglican to receive, because they are not in union with the Catholic Church.

Though some RC’s do except the sacrements off Anglicans.

Catholic s are not permitted by the Catholic Church to receive in the Anglican Community, because the Eucharist is not valid. The Anglican Community allows anyone to receive.

Anyone who is baptised can recieve it in an Anglican Church. Mormons and JW’s can’t because their baptism is invalid.

You are talking about two things here.
One is the body blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ

The Other is a flat piece of bread

Do you believe the Anglican sacrament is a flat piece of bread because you believe the Anglican priesthood is invalid or is their another reason?

The idea that it is mere bread is not an Anglican one.

Either way there is no such thing as an interfaith Eucharist.

I called this thread Interfaith Eucharist because I couldn’t think of a better name.

Catholics canot recieve the flat bread

We do not believe it is merely flat bread.

Catholic priests cannot knowingly give the body blood sould and divinity to an anglican…unless of course an ICBM is incoming.

What’s a ICBM?

 

[East_Anglican]

So the R.C recogniise the EO and The AC recognises the RC but the RC does not recognise the AC and the EO does not recognise the RC.

It sounds like everyone is and going off on a sulk and saying “You left us and so we are going to cut you off and not recognise you.”

How sad.

 

[benedictgal]

Though some RC’s do except the sacrements off Anglicans.

Anyone who is baptised can recieve it in an Anglican Church. Mormons and JW’s can’t because their baptism is invalid.

Do you believe the Anglican sacrament is a flat piece of bread because you believe the Anglican priesthood is invalid or is their another reason?

The idea that it is mere bread is not an Anglican one.

I called this thread Interfaith Eucharist because I couldn’t think of a better name.

We do not believe it is merely flat bread.

First of all, the validity of the priesthood is supremely important. Without valid Holy Orders, you cannot have valid Holy Communion. The Church believes that the Anglican orders are not valid because the line of Apostolic Succession was broken. The Anglicans further compounded the situation when they ordained women to the priesthood, something that the Church does not hold.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as Interfaith Eucharist between the Church and the Protestant Ecclesial Communities. Where is the documentation stating that the Church accepts the validity of the Anglican Eucharist? I suspect that no such document exists because if she does not accept the validity of the Anglican priesthood, then she can’t very well accept that their symbolic communion is the same as ours.

We believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. We believe that Jesus is present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. This presence comes about through the actions of a validly ordained priest who received his Holy Orders from a validly ordained and consecrated Bishop, who, in turn received them through an unbroken line of Apostolic succession.

 

[Digitonomy]

What’s a ICBM?

Intercontinental Ballistic Missile