Interfaith Marriage and Baptisim

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Hi guys,
I have already spoken to my Orthodox Christian friends and now I need to look from my husbands perspective, so I have come to your forum…

Here is the situation: I am a 21yr old college senior. As a freshman I started attending the local RC parish a few blocks from my campus with my RC roomates (I am G. Orthodox but there is no local parish w/in walking distance) I grew up around a lot of Catholics and most of the beliefs are pretty much the same. ( I just did not recieve communion there). Any how a few months into the year a man that attended weekly (actually daily) came up to me after mass and asked me to breakfast. We hit it off right away but believe it or not the topic of age and religion never came up. (He was kind of annoyed when he found out I was only 18, I was completly shocked to find out he was 28 , lets just say mutual shock!!!) We quickly got passed that since we both were so into each other. I loved how passionate he was for his faith. And that brings us to the next issue, religion, He automatically assumed I was RC since he met me at church. After 3 months of dating he asked why I never went up to recieve and I told him it was because I was Greek Orthodox. I then explaned why I attended there etc etc. He seemed ok with it. We got engaged one year later. And this is when it all started to crumble. We went both to Pre-Canna at his Parish, and Pre wedding Prep at mine. We agreed on an Orthodox wedding since with a dispensation our sacraments are valid to Roman Catholics. We disscused everything. I told him I wanted our children baptised Orthodox, he said he was ok with that since again, RC recognizes all our sacraments etc. And just like him my religion is very important to me. We really did talk long and hard about all of these things.
He wanted kids right away (again he is 10 yrs older, established etc) I wanted to wait a few years. At least until I finished college.
We decided to be very diligant with the whole NFP thing to avoid pregnancy until I was done with school. Yea, very diligant for almost a year. …Here is the thick of it, I am now 21, I graduate in May and am due in APRIL. Here is the kicker, my husband has just told me that he has changed his mind about baptising the baby in the Orthodox church. He wants “his” baby rasied as an RC and that it would be best for the family for me to continue attending the RC church with him and that is final!!! We had discussed all this prior to marriage, and I am floored. I can not be a different religion then my child, and although I love the RC church and you are very similar, you are not GO. There is a mysticim in our church that is just not in RC. And please don’t suggest Byzintine Catholic, GO is GO, and I love it. We are at complete odds with each other, He keeps telling me that the father determins the childs baptismal selection and that I should just accept this.
So here you go guys your on his turf, give me you (name removed by moderator)ut on the matter.
 
Hi guys,
I have already spoken to my Orthodox Christian friends and now I need to look from my husbands perspective, so I have come to your forum…

Here is the situation: I am a 21yr old college senior. As a freshman I started attending the local RC parish a few blocks from my campus with my RC roomates (I am G. Orthodox but there is no local parish w/in walking distance) I grew up around a lot of Catholics and most of the beliefs are pretty much the same. ( I just did not recieve communion there). Any how a few months into the year a man that attended weekly (actually daily) came up to me after mass and asked me to breakfast. We hit it off right away but believe it or not the topic of age and religion never came up. (He was kind of annoyed when he found out I was only 18, I was completly shocked to find out he was 28 , lets just say mutual shock!!!) We quickly got passed that since we both were so into each other. I loved how passionate he was for his faith. And that brings us to the next issue, religion, He automatically assumed I was RC since he met me at church. After 3 months of dating he asked why I never went up to recieve and I told him it was because I was Greek Orthodox. I then explaned why I attended there etc etc. He seemed ok with it. We got engaged one year later. And this is when it all started to crumble. We went both to Pre-Canna at his Parish, and Pre wedding Prep at mine. We agreed on an Orthodox wedding since with a dispensation our sacraments are valid to Roman Catholics. We disscused everything. I told him I wanted our children baptised Orthodox, he said he was ok with that since again, RC recognizes all our sacraments etc. And just like him my religion is very important to me. We really did talk long and hard about all of these things.
He wanted kids right away (again he is 10 yrs older, established etc) I wanted to wait a few years. At least until I finished college.
We decided to be very diligant with the whole NFP thing to avoid pregnancy until I was done with school. Yea, very diligant for almost a year. …Here is the thick of it, I am now 21, I graduate in May and am due in APRIL. Here is the kicker, my husband has just told me that he has changed his mind about baptising the baby in the Orthodox church. He wants “his” baby rasied as an RC and that it would be best for the family for me to continue attending the RC church with him and that is final!!! We had discussed all this prior to marriage, and I am floored. I can not be a different religion then my child, and although I love the RC church and you are very similar, you are not GO. There is a mysticim in our church that is just not in RC. And please don’t suggest Byzintine Catholic, GO is GO, and I love it. We are at complete odds with each other, He keeps telling me that the father determins the childs baptismal selection and that I should just accept this.
So here you go guys your on his turf, give me you (name removed by moderator)ut on the matter.
 
First of all, welcome.

In the Nuptial liturgy for Latin-Rite Catholics (Roman Catholic is not an ecclesial term), there is a segment within the consent that asks the couple if they are willing to accept children lovingly from God and agree to rear them according to the laws of Christ and His Church. We understand His Church to mean the Catholic Church that is under the leadership of Christ’s vicar, the Holy Father. Even though you received a dispensation to marry in the Greek Orthodox Church, which, by the way, is recognized as a Sister Church but not in full communion with the Catholic Church, he is still bound to rear the children as members of the Catholic Church.

From what I have read in these forums, the children are baptized into the rite of their father, which, in your case, would be the Church. I could be wrong, but that is how I understand it, again, based on these forums.
 
Hi Agapi,

A few thoughts:

Have you asked your Orthodox priest what Orthodox canon law has to say on the matter?

You said that you talked about the issue before marriage. Do you recall if you both signed documents saying that the children would be raised in either Church, or saying that either party has an obligation to raise the children in either Church? I don’t know the answer to that, I’m just asking you to ask yourselves (and perhaps check your own marriage preparation files at the church(s) )
 
My take:** If** he decided BEFORE you were married, and told you it was OK, then no take backs! He might be ten years older, but in my opinion if this is true, this is incredibly immature of him. I understand it. That doesn’t make it right.

Now, you understand that your husband signed a form that said he must do everything in his power to ensure his children were raised as Catholics, right? If you were not aware of this, then something is wrong.

And he’s only partially correct on the “father decides” thing. In the Church, when the parties of the marriage are of two different Churches, such as Maronite and Roman Catholic (not Orthodox), then upon Marriage the husband’s Church (Maronite, Byzantine, Roman, etc.) becomes the children’s Church. Doesn’t say anything about Orthodox. I will get you the documents, but I want to get this posted before somebody comes in and steers you inthe wrong direction.

On a practical note, I would first look at his family for this sudden change in posture. Is there perhaps a MIL who realized she is going to be a grandmother, and wants her little cherub baptized in the Roman Rite?

Secondly, if you can bring yourself to do it (because I of course have no idea of your faith journey, and you do have a right to remain Orthodox if that is where you feel God has called you), could you agree that he change to one of the Eastern Churches who recognize the Pope, and you convert to an Eastern Church? Please don’t be angry. It’s just an idea.

[edit] This is the USCCB document on Catholic-Orthodox marriage of which you should have received a copy during marriage prep:
http://www.usccb.org/seia/5-264.pdf

Here is canon law on Baptism for the Romans:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2U.HTM

You will note that in the Roman Rite, your baby will not be chrismated until sometime when he or she is older. If the baptism took place in one of the Eastern Churches, even though it is Catholic, your baby would be chrismated.

This is the Vatican II document on the Eastern Churches:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...cree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html

I empathize with you. My daughter was married to a man, not Orthodox where things are so similar, but Methodists. He promsied my daughter they would be married in the Church, and that their children could be baptized and raised Catholic. He then proceded to play a bunch of passive-agressive games to the point where the girls were not baptized until he deserted her. So this whole tangle makes me a bit peturbed on your behalf.
 
Have you thought about arranging a joint meeting of his priest and yours with the two of you? It might clear up a lot of things.
 
Agapi said:
Hi guys,
I have already spoken to my Orthodox Christian friends and now I need to look from my husbands perspective, so I have come to your forum…

Here is the situation: I am a 21yr old college senior. As a freshman I started attending the local RC parish a few blocks from my campus with my RC roomates (I am G. Orthodox but there is no local parish w/in walking distance) I grew up around a lot of Catholics and most of the beliefs are pretty much the same. ( I just did not recieve communion there). Any how a few months into the year a man that attended weekly (actually daily) came up to me after mass and asked me to breakfast. We hit it off right away but believe it or not the topic of age and religion never came up. (He was kind of annoyed when he found out I was only 18, I was completly shocked to find out he was 28 , lets just say mutual shock!!!) We quickly got passed that since we both were so into each other. I loved how passionate he was for his faith. And that brings us to the next issue, religion, He automatically assumed I was RC since he met me at church. After 3 months of dating he asked why I never went up to recieve and I told him it was because I was Greek Orthodox. I then explaned why I attended there etc etc. He seemed ok with it. We got engaged one year later. And this is when it all started to crumble. We went both to Pre-Canna at his Parish, and Pre wedding Prep at mine. We agreed on an Orthodox wedding since with a dispensation our sacraments are valid to Roman Catholics. We disscused everything. I told him I wanted our children baptised Orthodox, he said he was ok with that since again, RC recognizes all our sacraments etc. And just like him my religion is very important to me. We really did talk long and hard about all of these things.
He wanted kids right away (again he is 10 yrs older, established etc) I wanted to wait a few years. At least until I finished college.
We decided to be very diligant with the whole NFP thing to avoid pregnancy until I was done with school. Yea, very diligant for almost a year. …Here is the thick of it, I am now 21, I graduate in May and am due in APRIL. Here is the kicker, my husband has just told me that he has changed his mind about baptising the baby in the Orthodox church. He wants “his” baby rasied as an RC and that it would be best for the family for me to continue attending the RC church with him and that is final!!! We had discussed all this prior to marriage, and I am floored. I can not be a different religion then my child, and although I love the RC church and you are very similar, you are not GO. There is a mysticim in our church that is just not in RC. And please don’t suggest Byzintine Catholic, GO is GO, and I love it. We are at complete odds with each other, He keeps telling me that the father determins the childs baptismal selection and that I should just accept this.
So here you go guys your on his turf, give me you (name removed by moderator)ut on the matter.
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You mention that the Marriage took place in the Greek Orthodox Church. Are there any promises made to raise the child Greek Orthodox? Generally speaking, tradition is that the child is Baptized and raised in the Rite of the Father.
 
 
This is what the USCCB document, A Guide For Catholic Clergy and Other Pastoral Ministers has to say on the matter (page 14 in the PDF, which is labeled page 12 on the bottom of it):

At present **both the Catholic and Orthodox ****churches require their faithful entering into such **marriages to ensure that any children be baptized and raised in their own church. *The **Directory for the Application of Principles and *Norms on Ecumenism, issued in 1993 by the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, offers helpful advice on this
question. The Catholic party will be asked to affirm “that he or she is prepared to avoid the dangers of abandoning the faith and to promise sincerely to do all in his/her power to see that
the children of the marriage be baptized and educated in theCatholic Church” (no. 150). On the other hand, it should be kept in mind that if, “notwithstanding the Catholic’s best efforts, the children are not baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church, the Catholic parent does not fall subject to the censure of Canon Law” (no. 151). **Marriage with an Orthodox Christian is a **special case, given the fact that we share the same sacraments, above all the priesthood and the eucharist. “If proper pastoral care is given to persons involved in these marriages, the faithful of both communions can be helped to understand how children born of such marriages will be initiated into and spiritually nourished by the sacramental mysteries of Christ. Their formation in authentic Christian doctrine and ways of
Christian living would, for the most part, be similar in each Church” (no. 152).
 
Agapi said:
Hi guys,
I have already spoken to my Orthodox Christian friends and now I need to look from my husbands perspective, so I have come to your forum…

Here is the situation: I am a 21yr old college senior. As a freshman I started attending the local RC parish a few blocks from my campus with my RC roomates (I am G. Orthodox but there is no local parish w/in walking distance) I grew up around a lot of Catholics and most of the beliefs are pretty much the same. ( I just did not recieve communion there). Any how a few months into the year a man that attended weekly (actually daily) came up to me after mass and asked me to breakfast. We hit it off right away but believe it or not the topic of age and religion never came up. (He was kind of annoyed when he found out I was only 18, I was completly shocked to find out he was 28 , lets just say mutual shock!!!) We quickly got passed that since we both were so into each other. I loved how passionate he was for his faith. And that brings us to the next issue, religion, He automatically assumed I was RC since he met me at church. After 3 months of dating he asked why I never went up to recieve and I told him it was because I was Greek Orthodox. I then explaned why I attended there etc etc. He seemed ok with it. We got engaged one year later. And this is when it all started to crumble. We went both to Pre-Canna at his Parish, and Pre wedding Prep at mine. We agreed on an Orthodox wedding since with a dispensation our sacraments are valid to Roman Catholics. We disscused everything. I told him I wanted our children baptised Orthodox, he said he was ok with that since again, RC recognizes all our sacraments etc. And just like him my religion is very important to me. We really did talk long and hard about all of these things.
He wanted kids right away (again he is 10 yrs older, established etc) I wanted to wait a few years. At least until I finished college.
We decided to be very diligant with the whole NFP thing to avoid pregnancy until I was done with school. Yea, very diligant for almost a year. …Here is the thick of it, I am now 21, I graduate in May and am due in APRIL. Here is the kicker, my husband has just told me that he has changed his mind about baptising the baby in the Orthodox church. He wants “his” baby rasied as an RC and that it would be best for the family for me to continue attending the RC church with him and that is final!!! We had discussed all this prior to marriage, and I am floored. I can not be a different religion then my child, and although I love the RC church and you are very similar, you are not GO. There is a mysticim in our church that is just not in RC. And please don’t suggest Byzintine Catholic, GO is GO, and I love it. We are at complete odds with each other, He keeps telling me that the father determins the childs baptismal selection and that I should just accept this.
So here you go guys your on his turf, give me you (name removed by moderator)ut on the matter.
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I’m confused. Did you get married?
 
MeryGate,
Yes, we got married a year and a half ago. In the Greek Orthodox church.
 
OUTNCHGOBRBS,

That large document you posted, declaring the Catholic party must do all they can to ensure children are reared Catholic… that is the document DH pulled out when he made the oh by the way were going to baptize Roman Catholic decision. (The Othodox also ask the same of its members). Then he started in in the fathers rite rule which really only aplies to Latin Rite and Eastern Rite Catholics.
I must say he is very, very strict Catholic. He did agree to allow me to raise our kids GO but I think when I actually became pregnant he realized that he wan’t as ok with it as he thought. (I am not really worried that he will leave me, after all one does not go to 6:30 daily mass and confession Saturdays, and then file for divorse from his pregnant wife) or did the Catholic rules for divorse change (LOL).
I don’t mean to sound harsh, he really is a wonderful man, but we agreed and now he is not ok with it, and it is pulling us both apart at a time where we should be comming closer together.
A lot of people have suggested Byz. rite but it is just not the same. If I was going to convert I would just become Latin rite for my hubbys sake. I think that may actually be part of his logic. He knows I could not bare the thought of rasing my child a different religion then my own and if he wins, then I would most likely convert.
 
In short:

To validly and licitly marry you, he needs the bishop’s permission, and you need your bishop’s permission. So long as you agree that the children be raise to accept the validity of the Catholic Faith, it is permitted to raise them in the Orthodox Church.

Personal Recommendation:
don’t marry until both of you have worked this out to mutual satisfaction.

It is best if the children are raised in a single church with both parents participating.

You might consider one of the Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches as a compromise; Praxis matching the Orthodox, but still Catholic. For the Orthodox partner, depending upon their attitude towards Rome, it can be a minor or a major sacrifice; for a Roman Catholic, it’s still the same faith, but in a very different expression.
 
Agapi said:
OUTNCHGOBRBS,
I must say he is very, very strict Catholic. He did agree to allow me to raise our kids GO but I think when I actually became pregnant he realized that he wan’t as ok with it as he thought.
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Instead of just “pulling out the documents” has he explained his thought process to you? Explained what is in his heart? Bait and Switch – which is what he has done here, in changing the agreement the two of you made earlier, once the marriage has taken place – is really a serious breach of faith. It is his responsibility to truly share with you why this has occurred at a very high level – emotionally, intellectually and spiritually.

Thoughts that come to my mind are that
He loves you dearly and was willing to agree to most anything for you to marry him, and didn’t care what he was agreeing to for that to happen.

He figured “one we’re married,” he would get things his way (the “father’s rite rules” nonsence comes into play here.

He knows what his obligations are as a Roman Catholic father.

He is getting pressure from someone else for the child to be baptized in the RCC.

You are both in a very difficult situation and I think you must honor one another, your faith traditions, and your marriage vows. That’s going to mean talking to priests in BOTH rites – and probably a marriage counselor – to see what can be salvaged of this situation.

Frankly, one thing you are likely to be told is that this may be very good grounds for annulment of your marriage – and that is a particularly sad and scary thought. Both of you need to look hard at how serious this matter is.

My prayers are with you both, and the child whom you carry.
 
Agapi said:
MeryGate,
Yes, we got married a year and a half ago. In the Greek Orthodox church.
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Frankly, whatever you agreed upon, even if I thought your husband is “right”, he’s definitely acting mighty strange.
 
Agapi said:
OUTNCHGOBRBS,

That large document you posted, declaring the Catholic party must do all they can to ensure children are reared Catholic… that is the document DH pulled out when he made the oh by the way were going to baptize Roman Catholic decision. (The Othodox also ask the same of its members). Then he started in in the fathers rite rule which really only aplies to Latin Rite and Eastern Rite Catholics.
I must say he is very, very strict Catholic. He did agree to allow me to raise our kids GO but I think when I actually became pregnant he realized that he wan’t as ok with it as he thought. (I am not really worried that he will leave me, after all one does not go to 6:30 daily mass and confession Saturdays, and then file for divorse from his pregnant wife) or did the Catholic rules for divorse change (LOL).
I don’t mean to sound harsh, he really is a wonderful man, but we agreed and now he is not ok with it, and it is pulling us both apart at a time where we should be comming closer together.
A lot of people have suggested Byz. rite but it is just not the same. If I was going to convert I would just become Latin rite for my hubbys sake. I think that may actually be part of his logic. He knows I could not bare the thought of rasing my child a different religion then my own and if he wins, then I would most likely convert.
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Dirty pool all around. There is only one reason to become Catholic, and that is because you believe it to be true. I’ll betcha 50 cents if you went to a Catholic priest and laid this out on the table, he would not encourage you husband.

The battlefield here is religion, but the battle is about power.
 
Mercygate and IrishAM,
is this really how men think? is it a power tip? because right now I am in a pretty tuff situation. I will basically take my finals give birth, graduate, and then go right into the role of " betty homemaker". so yes he does have all the power right now, and there isnt really much I can do about it. I don’t think he was false in telling me how we could raise our kids when we discused it pre marriage. I think he just figured I would change my mind since we still attend his RC church. (again the GO parish is not that close to where we live)

Irony:
I did try to come to this forum to look at this from his point of view, but most of you took my side.Thank you all for your suggestions and comments.
I will be speaking w/ DH tonight. We have a lot to discuss. I’ll keep you all posted
 
Agapi said:
Mercygate and IrishAM,
is this really how men think? is it a power tip? because right now I am in a pretty tuff situation. I will basically take my finals give birth, graduate, and then go right into the role of " betty homemaker". so yes he does have all the power right now, and there isnt really much I can do about it. I don’t think he was false in telling me how we could raise our kids when we discused it pre marriage. I think he just figured I would change my mind since we still attend his RC church. (again the GO parish is not that close to where we live)

Irony:
I did try to come to this forum to look at this from his point of view, but most of you took my side.Thank you all for your suggestions and comments.
I will be speaking w/ DH tonight. We have a lot to discuss. I’ll keep you all posted
Click to expand...
God love you, Dear. Many, many people THINK that when they marry, religion will be “workable” but when children come along they get really possessive about it. Fortunately, you are both Christians and you are both from strong, Apostolic traditions.

I can understand your reservations about Byzantine Catholicism – but that still might be an answer for you. Part of the pull of Orthodoxy to one born into it is the national character of one’s church. Many Orthodox deny that, but it is a fact that ethnicity plays a big role in the sense of belonging.

I hope your husband softens. You both seem to have so much faith and love to offer your chldren.
 
Agapi said:
OUTNCHGOBRBS,

That large document you posted, declaring the Catholic party must do all they can to ensure children are reared Catholic… that is the document DH pulled out when he made the oh by the way were going to baptize Roman Catholic decision. (The Othodox also ask the same of its members). Then he started in in the fathers rite rule which really only aplies to Latin Rite and Eastern Rite Catholics.
That same document also pointed out that very fact, that you signed as well.** It also pointed out that marrying an Orthodox Christian was a special case**. That’s why I am SO very much in favor of your baby being baptized Greek Orthodox. If that didn’t apply, I would not have said so.
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mercygate said:
Dirty pool all around. There is only one reason to become Catholic, and that is because you believe it to be true. I’ll betcha 50 cents if you went to a Catholic priest and laid this out on the table, he would not encourage you husband.

The battlefield here is religion, but the battle is about power.
Those are my sentiments. I don’t know if it’s his mother or another relative, or just a big fat bait-and-switch because he’s ten years older and thinks he can just do as he pleases under the guise of faith, but Agapi has every right to believe that when he married her, he meant what he said that the baby could be baptized GO (😊 which I didn’t realize was Greek Orthodox. Sorry Agapi. I thought you were angry and just wanted to GO, as in move on this).
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I agree. She should stand her ground, and arrange a meeting with the two priests.

That is very true! Remember the neck!👍

Agapi honey- I hope he pulls his head out of his fantail. I didn’t do all that research for the finger exercise. Use it to your best advantage. And you have more on your side than you think. He’s quite blessed to not only have an intelligent wife, but an educated one, and one so much younger than he- don’t think that isn’t something valuable (“Father’s right” indeed!).

Besides, you have the baby right now, all five months of him or her.😃
 
mercygate said:
God love you, Dear. Many, many people THINK that when they marry, religion will be “workable” but when children come along they get really possessive about it. Fortunately, you are both Christians and you are both from strong, Apostolic traditions.

I can understand your reservations about Byzantine Catholicism – but that still might be an answer for you. Part of the pull of Orthodoxy to one born into it is the national character of one’s church. Many Orthodox deny that, but it is a fact that ethnicity plays a big role in the sense of belonging.

I hope your husband softens. You both seem to have so much faith and love to offer your chldren.

Hey! Remember the mother in *My Big Fat Greek Wedding? *Don’t forget the power of the neck!

I’m a convert to Catholicism, so I’m not advocating that you change his mind about his faith, but you do need a calm assessment of the case – and the “father’s rite prevails” argument is not a good start – even if it WERE true in your case.
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