Interfaith Marriage and Catholic baptism

[Anziano]

Posted this is the wrong place, but…

I’m an LDS Bishop, equivalent of a Priest or Pastor, and a member of my congregation is married to a Catholic. Not sure how they were married (no idea in which Church, it could have been a JoP for all I know). She is practicing LDS, he was apparently (second hand) non-practicing Catholic.

Now they have a baby.

What do we do now? From my theological POV, we do not recognize Catholic authority, so a Catholic baptism is a nice ceremony with no theological connotations (this is not intended as disrespect). Likewise an LDS baptism, I assume, would have similarly no real meaning in a Catholic context.

So would it really matter to anyone? I personally like the Catholic Church, I’ve studied it for a long time, attended Mass on quite a few occasions, and generally like Catholics. Good friend with the husband’s Priest for that matter, setting up an appointment to deal with this with him.

But I am wondering if we can defuse the marital tension by allowing the baptism under the premise that it really means nothing to us (LDS) but is a nice ceremony by a nice Priest who means well and who we all respect, and vice versa (eventually the child would be baptized LDS as well, but that should have no meaning to a Catholic)?

 

[1ke]

A Catholic can only approach the Church for baptism if they intend to raise the child Catholic.

And, no, the child could not be baptized LDS in addition to Catholic. That is sacreligious.

 

[PietroPaolo]

…What do we do now? From my theological POV, we do not recognize Catholic authority, so a Catholic baptism is a nice ceremony with no theological connotations (this is not intended as disrespect). Likewise an LDS baptism, I assume, would have similarly no real meaning in a Catholic context…

So would it really matter to anyone?

But I am wondering if we can defuse the marital tension by allowing the baptism under the premise that it really means nothing to us (LDS) but is a nice ceremony by a nice Priest who means well and who we all respect, and vice versa (eventually the child would be baptized LDS as well, but that should have no meaning to a Catholic)?

It would, of course, matter a great deal to a Catholic to have a baby “baptized” into a non-Christian religion after baptism into the Church. It would amount to apostasy.

Whether or not Catholics think Mormons are “nice” and “mean well” and whether Mormons think the same of Catholics has no bearing on the situation.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Canon law on Catholic baptism can be found here.

 

[robertkchacon]

Bishop,

No disrespect here either, but is it normal in Mormonism to do things that “really mean nothing”? Obviously that’s rhetorical. Of course not. You say you respect Catholicism, but in Catholicism we should not perform sacraments if they dont “really mean” anything. For sure, many Catholics accept sacraments or perform other rites very perfunctory.

But the Church does not normally perform sacraments when there is an obvious lack of faith. Sacraments DO something if the believer(s) have faith.They are not just symbols. Without faith, they are sacrilege as the other poster mentioned.

To offer such a “solution” actually shows shows little respect for the Church, and for your own integrity as well I would think. Although I understand you are trying to make things “nice” for everyone, I think I such a proposition is beneath both traditions.

While, I believe the Church would want the child baptized, a valid baptism also rests on the faith of the parent. If the nominal Catholic really is not intending to baptize the child nor raise the child Catholic, I would think the Church will find such an effort invalid. But, why comment here if you are friends with the nominal Catholics priest? Why don you just ask him now with the (name removed by moderator)ut youve received here? I may be completely wrong about your idea, but I dont think so. And I dont think you really think Im wrong either, otherwise you would have asked the priest already or perhaps did and thats what he told you. If you did ask and he responded positively to your suggestion, then I think hes making a mistake, but you should want to know that if you really do have respect for the Church.

Thanks for asking, and trying to make this mixed marriage have a smooth sailing here, but sometimes conflict is good where it wakes people up to the lies in their life. In this case, just trying to make everyone happy points out the lack of faith on the part of nominal Catholic and that person needs to wake up and make a decision. And the Mormon partner needs to confront the issue straight on and not try to do things that “really mean nothing”. Otherwise it would seem to be a marriage that really doesnt mean much either.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Posted this is the wrong place, but…

I’m an LDS Bishop, equivalent of a Priest or Pastor, and a member of my congregation is married to a Catholic. Not sure how they were married (no idea in which Church, it could have been a JoP for all I know). She is practicing LDS, he was apparently (second hand) non-practicing Catholic.

Now they have a baby.

What do we do now? From my theological POV, we do not recognize Catholic authority, so a Catholic baptism is a nice ceremony with no theological connotations (this is not intended as disrespect). Likewise an LDS baptism, I assume, would have similarly no real meaning in a Catholic context.

So would it really matter to anyone? I personally like the Catholic Church, I’ve studied it for a long time, attended Mass on quite a few occasions, and generally like Catholics. Good friend with the husband’s Priest for that matter, setting up an appointment to deal with this with him.

But I am wondering if we can defuse the marital tension by allowing the baptism under the premise that it really means nothing to us (LDS) but is a nice ceremony by a nice Priest who means well and who we all respect, and vice versa (eventually the child would be baptized LDS as well, but that should have no meaning to a Catholic)?

Have you spoken to your stake president - what does he think about it? (Just thinking of other people you could turn to for advice)…

Personally, I think the parents need to sit down and work out what exactly they want to do and how they want to raise the child. The mother can’t be a TBM as I don’t know many LDS women who would easily give up a temple marriage and the consequences from not having a temple marriage (from an LDS perspective of course).

Sacraments whether Mormon or Catholic or any other religious sacrament should not be taken lightly. To put it into perspective…would a non-LDS be permitted to enter the temple? After all it’s just 4 walls to us? (I know the answer to this of course, I’m just trying to show how you can’t pick and choose the meaning and importance of sacraments just because it’s not valid elsewhere)

If he is a non practising catholic and has happily married an LDS, why he would now put his foot down to a catholic baptism is strange. Do they both attend your ward? If the child attends your ward, what’s the point it being baptised catholic?

I’m pretty sure you have to agree to raise them catholic to have kids baptised catholic?

Anyway point of this rather rambling post (apologies) is it is really down to the parents. But please don’t make sacraments into “nothing” even if you don’t find them valid. LDS have plenty of sacraments, signs, symbols, tokens etc that i find bizarre, but I wouldn’t down play it for an LDS as I know it is important to them. Same should go for baptism!

 

[Neofight]

Posted this is the wrong place, but…

I’m an LDS Bishop, equivalent of a Priest or Pastor, and a member of my congregation is married to a Catholic. Not sure how they were married (no idea in which Church, it could have been a JoP for all I know). She is practicing LDS, he was apparently (second hand) non-practicing Catholic.

Now they have a baby.

What do we do now? From my theological POV, we do not recognize Catholic authority, so a Catholic baptism is a nice ceremony with no theological connotations (this is not intended as disrespect). Likewise an LDS baptism, I assume, would have similarly no real meaning in a Catholic context.

So would it really matter to anyone? I personally like the Catholic Church, I’ve studied it for a long time, attended Mass on quite a few occasions, and generally like Catholics. Good friend with the husband’s Priest for that matter, setting up an appointment to deal with this with him.

But I am wondering if we can defuse the marital tension by allowing the baptism under the premise that it really means nothing to us (LDS) but is a nice ceremony by a nice Priest who means well and who we all respect, and vice versa (eventually the child would be baptized LDS as well, but that should have no meaning to a Catholic)?

First of all there is no such thing as a “Catholic Baptism”, However there are baptisms in by the Catholic Church, Regardless of what Church or denomination a person is baptized in, if it is a baptism in the name of the Trinity (Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit) it is recognized by the Catholic Church, as a Christian Baptism.

LDS does not fit that category.

If the child is to be raised in the LDS church, it would make sense to have him/her baptized in the Mormon faith. If the child is to be raised in (Trinitarian) Christianity, the child should be baptized in a Christian church.

When a child is baptized in a Catholic Church, the parents and godparents are asked if they will instruct the child in the faith…if that is not your plan, the baptism in the Catholic Church would not be entered into in good faith.

Peace and Prayers.

 

[1ke]

No disrespect here either, but is it normal in Mormonism to do things that “really mean nothing”?

The thread doessort of seem odd, almost nonsensical.

 

[Anziano]

Well, for example I know of a family in a Jewish-Mormon marriage that have baptized their children and also had a Bar Mitzvah. In a period of mixed faith marriages, these are difficult situations to deal with, but I am not sure that forcing division is the right answer. I have regularly visited mosques and synagogues. We celebrate Ramadan in my house, but none of us are Muslim.

There is an answer here. I have called my stake rep, the issue only came up yesterday, and since today is a holiday, none of us are working.

 

[1ke]

Well, for example I know of a family in a Jewish-Mormon marriage that have baptized their children and also had a Bar Mitzvah.

Indifferentism in religion may be tolerated or accepted by other religions, or may be done out of ignorance by the parents.

In the Catholic faith, indifferentism/syncretism is rejected as heretical. So, no, one cannot be baptized in the Catholic faith and the LDS or any other.

In a period of mixed faith marriages, these are difficult situations to deal with,

Which should be dealt with before entering into such a marriage in the first place.

but I am not sure that forcing division is the right answer.

The complete incompatibility of the two religions force the division. Either God is a Trinity of Persons or He isn’t. Either LDS religion is true and therefore Catholicism false, or vice versa.

These are not religions that can cohabit, they are mutually exclusive.

I have regularly visited mosques and synagogues.

As many people have. There is nothing wrong with learning about other religions.

We celebrate Ramadan in my house, but none of us are Muslim.

I’m not sure what purpose that serves.

There is an answer here. I have called my stake rep, the issue only came up yesterday, and since today is a holiday, none of us are working.

I don’t believe you have even articulated “what” the problem is.

Has the Catholic party indicated they desire to have their child baptized in the Catholic Church? He needs to talk to his priest if so.

 

[Anziano]

In the Catholic faith, indifferentism/syncretism is rejected as heretical. So, no, one cannot be baptized in the Catholic faith and the LDS or any other.

I was not aware it was indifferentism. In fact, I thought I was looking for a way to show respect to everyone.

Which should be dealt with before entering into such a marriage in the first place.

And if I had an DeLorean I might try to fix things, but…

The complete incompatibility of the two religions force the division. Either God is a Trinity of Persons or He isn’t. Either LDS religion is true and therefore Catholicism false, or vice versa.

I imagine we are going to learn a lot about God after death that would surprise both of us, so I cannot claim to be as dogmatic as this.

These are not religions that can cohabit, they are mutually exclusive.

A good friend of mine is in a Muslim-Mormon marriage and somehow they make it work, I assumed this would be easier.

I don’t believe you have even articulated “what” the problem is.

Has the Catholic party indicated they desire to have their child baptized in the Catholic Church? He needs to talk to his priest if so.

So, from what I am hearing there is nothing that can be done?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I was not aware it was indifferentism. In fact, I thought I was looking for a way to show respect to everyone.

And if I had an DeLorean I might try to fix things, but…

I imagine we are going to learn a lot about God after death that would surprise both of us, so I cannot claim to be as dogmatic as this.

A good friend of mine is in a Muslim-Mormon marriage and somehow they make it work, I assumed this would be easier.

So, from what I am hearing there is nothing that can be done?

It’s not that nothing can be done, it’s that the parents the same as every married couple with a child has to do needs to decide how they want to raise the child. It’s perfectly normal to discuss these things preferably before and after the marriage. These two people have decided to marry someone of a different faith…no one is saying that’s a problem, but they have to accept the fact that things will need to be discussed. I’m in an interfaith marriage…my husband is atheist, but I had all these sorts of discussions BEFORE we got married. If they haven’t done this, that’s their problem as married and now parents. THEY should decide no one else.

I could be completely wrong here, but just a gut feeling, any chance she was pregnant before the wedding? Just the way you made it sound they had eloped.

 

[Anziano]

It’s not that nothing can be done, it’s that the parents the same as every married couple with a child has to do needs to decide how they want to raise the child. It’s perfectly normal to discuss these things preferably before and after the marriage. These two people have decided to marry someone of a different faith…no one is saying that’s a problem, but they have to accept the fact that things will need to be discussed. I’m in an interfaith marriage…my husband is atheist, but I had all these sorts of discussions BEFORE we got married. If they haven’t done this, that’s their problem as married and now parents. THEY should decide no one else.

I could be completely wrong here, but just a gut feeling, any chance she was pregnant before the wedding? Just the way you made it sound they had eloped.

Marriage was well before child, not sure why a shotgun wedding was assumed.

The problem I see is that everyone wants to say “Well they should have…” when the time and utility of that phrase is well past. What should have happened 2, 4, or 6 years ago did not happen, and yet here we are. The immediate reality is that there is a mixed faith couple that is trying to find their way, and the only response is that there is nothing to be done. If that is the decision, then I can live with that.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Marriage was well before child, not sure why a shotgun wedding was assumed.

The problem I see is that everyone wants to say “Well they should have…” when the time and utility of that phrase is well past. What should have happened 2, 4, or 6 years ago did not happen, and yet here we are. The immediate reality is that there is a mixed faith couple that is trying to find their way, and the only response is that there is nothing to be done. If that is the decision, then I can live with that.

You seem to be skipping half my post where I say…the parents need to decide how they want to raise a child. What do the parents want to do? Do they want the child to be catholic or Mormon or decide for itself when older?

 

[Anziano]

You seem to be skipping half my post where I say…the parents need to decide how they want to raise a child. What do the parents want to do? Do they want the child to be catholic or Mormon or decide for itself when older?

They are fighting about it. A lot apparently. I am trying to find a way to stop fighting. One poster said that Jesus came to bring the sword, but I do not think Christ would want their marriage to end.

 

[1ke]

They are fighting about it. A lot apparently.

That is too bad. But not uncommon when a child comes along.

I am trying to find a way to stop fighting.

Counseling them to baptize in both faiths is unwise, especially built on the pretext that it “doesn’t really mean anything”. If the idea is to baptize LDS, raise LDS, and placate the father by baptizing Catholic, that is deceptive.

I still don’t understand the issue, you said he is “non practicing”. A non-practicing Catholic cannot approach the Church for baptism of their child. With the baptism comes the pledge to raise their child in the Catholic faith.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

They are fighting about it. A lot apparently. I am trying to find a way to stop fighting. One poster said that Jesus came to bring the sword, but I do not think Christ would want their marriage to end.

It’s difficult, but married people fight sometimes. I’m sure they will work it out in the end, I’m still confused as to how he is supposedly non practising but wants the child baptised catholic?

As a separate issue did they marry in a Catholic Church, if they didn’t, according to Catholicism the marriage is invalid and they are living in sin (I think…I’m sure catholics will verify). If he is concerned about his faith, he may need to think about that and speak to a priest.

 

[PietroPaolo]

As a separate issue did they marry in a Catholic Church, if they didn’t, according to Catholicism the marriage is invalid and they are living in sin (I think…I’m sure catholics will verify). If he is concerned about his faith, he may need to think about that and speak to a priest.

If he was baptized Catholic and he married outside the Catholic Church, without dispensation from his bishop, then, yes the marriage is invalid (i.e. he isn’t married in the eyes of God) and therefore he is living in sin (by having sexual relations outside of marriage).

That wouldn’t prevent the child from being baptized, but it is something he should get taken care of.

 

[MJJean]

It’s difficult, but married people fight sometimes. I’m sure they will work it out in the end, I’m still confused as to how he is supposedly non practising but wants the child baptised catholic?

It could be a “cultural catholic” thing. You know, he was baptized catholic as was his father before him, etc. If that’s the case, I’d say it’s only fair that the spouse actually practicing a faith gets to pick the faith the child is brought up in. Especially considering part of the catholic baptism is promising to rear the child catholic. Which he wouldn’t do since a big part of raising a child catholic is practicing the faith yourself. Unless he is planning on returning to the Church. In which case things will get a lot more complicated.