Interpreting Genesis - did Eve really sin?

[steve_b]

I was discussing Genesis with a friend, and I came across a dilemma I had never encountered before. I’ve really been struggling to overcome it.
My problem is this - Adam and Eve were created pure, sinless and without knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, when Eve ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, she was entirely unaware that she was sinning (no ‘mens rea’), and therefore couldn’t have understood the importance of God’s command to not to eat the fruit (i.e. how could she know it was bad/a sin to disobey god?).

What did God say would happen to them as a consequence if they disobeyed His command? “You will surely die.”

They most certainly know what that means. No discussion was needed. Neither of them asked what it meant to die. They knew what was meant.
CM:

The thing is, the Catholic Church admits that those who are unaware that they are sinning are legitimately free from blame (infallibly ignorant), and the common understanding of natural law (granted by eating from the tree of knowledge) which makes sins such as murder irredeemable, simply did not exist at this time. I honestly can’t think of one sin which occurs without the wilful knowledge of the person committing it (apart from our inherited, original sin - and in light of this, I don’t see how it makes sense).

The dialogue was very clear. The temptation was to doubt God, doubt His command, doubt the consequence of disobedience to God, and in reality, say as Satan said, “I will not serve”. Instead I will be like YOU. And what did it say happened to them immediately after they disobeyed God’s command? The language is poetic but clear. They knew immediately they did wrong. They knew immediately they had changed. Their relationship with God had changed. before sin they walked with God. After they sinned, they hid from God.
CM:

So, how could Eve sin if she was completely unaware that what she was doing was bad? Isn’t a guilty conscience a requirement for sin? Your help would be greatly appreciated.

They WERE completely aware of the consequences of disobeying. God told them in advance what would happen if they disobeyed. There were no surprises about that. After they disobeyed, A & E knew immediately they screwed up. And it says they hid from God.

 

[steve_b]

Hmm…I’ve thought a while on this. Genesis 2:17 does say:
'But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

But nonetheless, the fact that they understood the consequences does not necessarily mean that they knew what they were doing, and therefore knew that they were sinning. An animal can understand whether or not the consequences are bad (not beneficial), without knowing whether the action is bad (morally corrupt/a sin). Not only did they not have sufficient knowledge of sin, they had no knowledge of it at all…hence I cannot understand how they can be culpable.

Before they sinned, they had all the preternatural gifts. newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm

You don’t sit down and have a disussion with an animal. They will never have a concept of morality. God didn’t make the animals that Adam was to name, an equal to him.

 

[babylonsfalling]

How did they know they ‘should’ do something is they didn’t know following him was Good? All they had was the knowledge of what was beneficial for them, as stated.

Btw, What worries me is that your quote in your signature seems entirely opposed to your belief that God is a dictator who acts for our own good, and is not justified by objective morality. I’ve always been of the opinion that God’s actions were justified by certain unalienable principles, I’m afraid.

They knew they should NOT do something because they were told by God.

They knew that following Him was good because not following him (exemplified by eating the forbidden fruit) would result in death…they were told that too. It’s simple, they follow God by following His commandment and they don’t die, which is a good thing. So they had the choice between doing something that would result in death and doing something that would NOT result in death. The idea that they couldn’t determine for that death was bad and NO death was good is not sensible.

Trying to find one tidbit of missing information in order to absolve Adam and Eve from sin is ultimately fruitless. Despite all human reasoning, it’s clear in Scripture that they DID sin. We don’t get to second guess God.

 

[Benadam]

Before they sinned, they had all the preternatural gifts. newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm

You don’t sit down and have a disussion with an animal. They will never have a concept of morality. God didn’t make the animals that Adam was to name, an equal to him.

Is it unreasoneable to speculate that perhaps the snake had become something like a witch’s familiar? A relationship through which a channel of communication operated?

 

[fhansen]

They knew they should NOT do something because they were told by God.

They knew that following Him was good because not following him (exemplified by eating the forbidden fruit) would result in death…they were told that too. It’s simple, they follow God by following His commandment and they don’t die, which is a good thing. So they had the choice between doing something that would result in death and doing something that would NOT result in death. The idea that they couldn’t determine for that death was bad and NO death was good is not sensible.

Trying to find one tidbit of missing information in order to absolve Adam and Eve from sin is ultimately fruitless. Despite all human reasoning, it’s clear in Scripture that they DID sin. We don’t get to second guess God.

Adam & Eve’s wills were free. This gave them the ability to, conceivably, value their own opinions over Gods’ on just how those wills should best be exercised, just like we may value our opinion over anyone else’s now. And, as smart as any of us may be, we can still turn out to be wrong, I think you’d agree, in considering our opinions on a given matter to be superior.

And so the question is sort of perennial, will God’s will be done or will man’s will be done? And, of course, this possibility-for humans to be wrong –is not a possibility for God. But this possibility-for us to be wrong-is an unavoidable “flaw” in creation, it might seem, because it allows for the possibility that Adam & Eve did not necessarily know-just by being told-that God’s will was superior to their’s. And that flaw is sort of a Catch-22, I think, because it’s the flaw of lacking Gods wisdom, which only God can have perfectly-it’s the flaw of not being God, to put it another way, which is exactly what mans imperfect-or flawed -opinion deemed possible.

Just some thoughts-probably flawed themselves.

 

[steve_b]

Is it unreasoneable to speculate that perhaps the snake had become something like a witch’s familiar? A relationship through which a channel of communication operated?

No need to speculate. Do scriptural word searches on Satan/devil. He’s real.