Intersex People

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… I presumed that by “female outer genitalia” they mean’t a underdeveloped penis…
Yes that is the very observation I am making…you presumed “fact” on the basis of faulty logic due to a faulty principle.

That is why I pulled you up on:
If you watch the “Oprah” segment mention they clearly explain that the person in question is undeniably a deformed male with micro penis…
It is also why you are unable to answer my challenge:
Re Katie you suggest she did not have a clitoris but a penis. I did not pick that up from the video. Can you give me the time stamp for that bit?
You are a little too taken with the unproven principle that issues of physical sex are to be wholly on the basis of XY chromosomes as opposed to XX. Yet clearly far more is involved than this single dimension approach to complete sexual morphology and functionality.
Even at the chromosomal level you must admit there is sex related genetic “damage” anways due to the androgen insensitivity genes. Yet you still hang on to the XY thing as the final answer.

This does not seem a rational but a pre biased approach to the issue.
 
Yes that is the very observation I am making…you presumed “fact” on the basis of faulty logic due to a faulty principle.

That is why I pulled you up on:

It is also why you are unable to answer my challenge:

You are a little too taken with the unproven principle that issues of physical sex are to be wholly on the basis of XY chromosomes as opposed to XX. Yet clearly far more is involved than this single dimension approach to complete sexual morphology and functionality.
Even at the chromosomal level you must admit there is sex related genetic “damage” anways due to the androgen insensitivity genes. Yet you still hang on to the XY thing as the final answer.

This does not seem a rational but a pre biased approach to the issue.
An effeminized facial structure, voice, and breasts are the result of hormones, not genetics.
I guess if you want to define gender based on genital anatomy, then I would assume that the individual would be judged to be the gender whose sexual function they resemble.
The idea that a genetic male could have a vagina just boggles my mind, since that’s such a cut and dry organ that either exists or doesn’t and isn’t affected by hormones.
I mean, I know some disturbing things came out of the East German secret athletic doping programs, but that case is just very strange.
 
Interesting article and I agree that the fluidity between male and female is nowhere as great as the intersex lobby suggest.

However I felt the author kept rolling off the nub of the problem about criteria re how to identify the sex of a newborn who has had sexual developmental issues and treat accordingly at this time.

There are significant percentages that are clearly not wholly girls and not wholly boys. And to reassign sex simply on external morphology alone, sex chromosomes alone etc is not always going to be the silver bullet we once thought it was. More discernment is needed because there are a great number of different medical things that it seems can go wrong.

Most people seem to be happiest in their psychosexual development when their gender matches their external genitalia. But it is clear this is not always so as drives and feelings of sexual identity are also determined it seems physiologically too. That is by hormones…especially in the womb when the brain is forming.

Having perfect external female genitals yet functioning testes and not ovaries is a case in point.
 
Interesting article and I agree that the fluidity between male and female is nowhere as great as the intersex lobby suggest.

However I felt the author kept rolling off the nub of the problem about criteria re how to identify the sex of a newborn who has had sexual developmental issues and treat accordingly at this time.

There are significant percentages that are clearly not wholly girls and not wholly boys. And to reassign sex simply on external morphology alone, sex chromosomes alone etc is not always going to be the silver bullet we once thought it was. More discernment is needed because there are a great number of different medical things that it seems can go wrong.

Most people seem to be happiest in their psychosexual development when their gender matches their external genitalia. But it is clear this is not always so as drives and feelings of sexual identity are also determined it seems physiologically too. That is by hormones…especially in the womb when the brain is forming.

Having perfect external female genitals yet functioning testes and not ovaries is a case in point.
Pretty much agree. BTW, thanks for the link, Ed.

My own suspicion is that the fluidity issue is overblown by those (let’s call them transgender, since that is already an umbrella term.), who truly are not directly intersexed, or who are and bought into the LGBT Kool-Aid. I know a few of both in those categories. But by and large, as the article points out, there is exactly a binary classification. Either the person is male, or female.

The case closed crowd has their right to consider it so, but that does not make it so. Until you’ve walked in that persons shoes…

Blessings,
Stephie
 
You’re welcome. The case for this needs to be made very clear. It can’t be ambiguous because children are being told they can choose their gender which is not scientific or rational. The fact that at least some people think there are dozens of genders does not make it so.

I think people are willing to hear the facts. It’s just that hearing we somehow don’t get it does not help us.

Best,
Ed
 
An effeminized facial structure, voice, and breasts are the result of hormones, not genetics.
I guess if you want to define gender based on genital anatomy, then I would assume that the individual would be judged to be the gender whose sexual function they resemble.
The idea that a genetic male could have a vagina just boggles my mind, since that’s such a cut and dry organ that either exists or doesn’t and isn’t affected by hormones.
I mean, I know some disturbing things came out of the East German secret athletic doping programs, but that case is just very strange.
Steve, a little Google/reading on how the body forms, and the impact of Androgen Insensitivity, will clear this up for you.
 
You’re welcome. The case for this needs to be made very clear. It can’t be ambiguous because children are being told they can choose their gender which is not scientific or rational. The fact that at least some people think there are dozens of genders does not make it so.

I think people are willing to hear the facts. It’s just that hearing we somehow don’t get it does not help us.

Best,
Ed
Agreed fully. This is a complex issue, as you realize. No, there really aren’t dozens of genders. Trust me… hundreds of hours praying in front of the Eucharistic tells you it isn’t a choice (pick one today, something else tomorrow), but does tell you the condition itself is very real.

It is, however, on my bucket list to ask God about once I’m upstairs.

Blessings,
Stephie
 
An effeminized facial structure, voice, and breasts are the result of hormones, not genetics.
These are secondary characteristics.
The issue with Katie are primary characteristics - like a vagina.
I guess if you want to define gender based on genital anatomy…
Actually with Katie I am not talking about gender but sex.
She has a perfect vagina and attached plumbing with no penis.
then I would assume that the individual would be judged to be the gender whose sexual function they resemble.
Well no, I am talking about how we identify sex. And yes, external morphology and sex chromosome abnormalities (AIS) clearly have a far bigger role to play in this issue than you are recognising.

I can see you still a somewhat unthinking acolyte of the XY=boy thing, end of story.
Medical science has discovered a lot more about sexual development since the XY discovery. Remember the XY science is still very young, only discovered in 1905. Public understanding is way behind the medical front curve as usual.
For example have a look here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testis-determining_factor
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

For example it is now known that the SRY gene (in the Y chromosome) is primarily responsible for testicles instead of ovaries. However it can mutate and cross over into the X chromosome.

And formation of external genitalia is due to another different process.
And development in the womb requires the interplay of many other things working properly re genetics.
The idea that a genetic male could have a vagina just boggles my mind, since that’s such a cut and dry organ that either exists or doesn’t and isn’t affected by hormones.
Steve may I suggest it only boggles your mind because you don’t really have much experience or understanding re the medical science.

That is fine.
But to come on a forum asserting principles and conclusions based on limited medical knowledge and even get facts wrong (like your assertions re the Oprah video) because of your faulty interpretations of what was being said there … is not helping anybody including yourself.

So how about slimming down on the simplistic and wild assertions you’ve been making and perhaps go into listening mode instead.
 
Intersex People are people who are born with genitals and physical features from both genders, often do to a birth defect. In some cases, such as in Klinefelter’s Syndrome/XXY Syndrome, Intersex People are born with defective sex chromosomes as well.

What is The Church’s stance on these people?
The Church’s stance is that we have to consider the circumstances of each person’s condition with prudence and love. The easiest path for such a person would be one of the various celabate vocations, especially since, if I recall correctly, usually such people are infertile, nor want to give a genetic defect to their children. Sometimes they are impotent too, which would make a sexual relationship very difficult if not impossible.

One thing we can say definitely though: that these people’s condition in no way has us doubt that human nature is essentially divided into two sexes. This is an illness, not another possibility inherent in human nature (and we don’t need the Church to tell us this either).

Christi pax.
 
The Church’s stance is that we have to consider the circumstances of each person’s condition with prudence and love. The easiest path for such a person would be one of the various celabate vocations, especially since, if I recall correctly, usually such people are infertile, nor want to give a genetic defect to their children. Sometimes they are impotent too, which would make a sexual relationship very difficult if not impossible.
I am not aware of the impotence issue for those with male genitalia. Are you able to support your assertion with a medical reference?
It seems difficult to assert before the case that celibacy is the easiest path for all such persons. It certainly might seem that way for medical superintendents or Catholics of a traditional view. However, as with Katie in the video it is clear she yearns for marriage and she has found a man who understands she is infertile. Adoption is always an option.
One thing we can say definitely though: that these people’s condition in no way has us doubt that human nature is essentially divided into two sexes. This is an illness, not another possibility inherent in human nature (and we don’t need the Church to tell us this either).
Not sure about the merits of an illness approach.
When does a sexual genetic mutation become an illness or a helpful reserve adaptive response in a large gene pool in case of a radically changing environment. For all we know the conception of Jesus may have been due to Mary having one ovary and one testes.
I suppose if a genetic change causes sterility that might suggest illness but even that is not finally conclusive. If such a sterile genetic mutation were to attach to some form of moral or intellectual genius of benefit to the race sterility might not be an indicator of illness.
Even pregnancy is treated as an illness medically so it seems the term illness is not as clear cut as we think.

Anways your point of there only being two sexes doesn’t practically seem to lead anywhere re these biologically based issues and persons discussed here.The usual Catholic concerns in this area are sexual acts, marriage and sexual reassignment procedures.
If we take Katie as an example in the Oprah video.
I see no moral reason why she should not marry or have sex with males even if she is chromosomal XY. She has a God given vagina after all!
On the other hand, had she at a younger age decided she felt she was a male (which in many ways she was having had testes at birth and being XY) I also see no problem with her having sexual reassignment surgery and marrying a girl. That could not easily be said to be mutilation rather than restoration given she is already sterile, the undescended testicles were removed for health reasons.

While the percentage of the population with these now well biologically identified issues is less than 1% it is more significant than past realised because in the past we did not have scientific procedures for identifying them unless gross morphological evidence presented (ie hermaphroditism).

Intelligent people will therefore rightly wonder whether there is also an as yet unrecognised stronger biological causality component behind homosexual sex drive and internal feelings of sexual identity at odds with one’s visible genitalia in a greater percentage of people than heretofore recognized.
 
…I see no moral reason why she should not marry or have sex with males even if she is chromosomal XY. She has a God given vagina after all!
Agreed though by “sex with males” - I assume you mean her husband.😉
On the other hand, had she at a younger age decided she felt she was a male (which in many ways she was having had testes at birth and being XY) I also see no problem with her having sexual reassignment surgery and marrying a girl.
Not so fast. Had she been of a rational mind to live as male, I too cannot see a reason to fault that. As I understand Katie’s physical makeup, marriage (as a man) would be problematic given (from recollection of the video) she lacks a penis, and I don’t think a man-made one would achieve the church requirement to consummate the marriage.
 
Not so fast. Had she been of a rational mind to live as male, I too cannot see a reason to fault that. As I understand Katie’s physical makeup, marriage (as a man) would be problematic given (from recollection of the video) she lacks a penis, and I don’t think a man-made one would achieve the church requirement to consummate the marriage.
I am willing to bow to your greater experience in this somewhat specialised area!
But
(a) perhaps a large enough, ahem, clitoris from an XY genetic male may well qualify?
(b) persons who mutually agree to abstain for life may still marry without asking these questions
I suggest there may be no clear cut universal apriori prohibitions?
 
…perhaps a large enough, ahem, clitoris from an XY genetic male may well qualify?
I suspect no amount of research will determine whether this theory has legs. :o
(b) persons who mutually agree to abstain for life may still marry without asking these questions
I believe the capability to consummate is a ‘hard’ and fast requirement for catholic marriage, though I’d wager no priest ever asks the question of apparently healthy looking would be husbands.
 
Rau;14628792 said:
Likely correct!
And an unconsummated marriage is still a valid marriage - though it may be dissolved.

Ability to engage in acts suitable for generation of offspring (regardless of fertility) may well be a Church discipline re validity…which is not the same as intrinsically evil.

And I am not sure it was ever envisaged for new elderly married couples…except as possibly an “out” if required at a later date.

It is interesting that women are likely never incapable of such an act yet men may be.
And being potent yet sterile (or even unable to ejaculate I believe) still passes this test 🤷.
 
…And being potent yet sterile (or even unable to ejaculate I believe) still passes this test 🤷.
Another poster, perhaps Vico?, looked into this once, reproducing a response to a question put to the Vatican. I have a suspicion it said some ejaculate is required, though not necessarily sourced from the testes. Diminishing returns in such rules I suggest. 🤷
 
It seems difficult to assert before the case that celibacy is the easiest path for all such persons. It certainly might seem that way for medical superintendents or Catholics of a traditional view.
It is easier because there are no need to deal with these questions of sexual morality and controversies. And, of course, celabacy is the superior vocation too.
However, as with Katie in the video it is clear she yearns for marriage and she has found a man who understands she is infertile. Adoption is always an option.
Sorry, I didn’t see a video 🙂 But, of course, none of what I said rejects adoption though.
Not sure about the merits of an illness approach.
An illness is a defective of the body. This is a defect of the body. Therefore…
When does a sexual genetic mutation become an illness or a helpful reserve adaptive response in a large gene pool in case of a radically changing environment
Species are not relative and arbitrary, and anyone can come up with a just-so story to explain any trait. A trait that benefits in some way but is defective in others is still in a sense a defect, like sickle cell disease.

With that said, considering to the noticable problems with such a condition, it is better to say that, like most mutations, they tend to make things worst.
Even pregnancy is treated as an illness medically so it seems the term illness is not as clear cut as we think.
No it isn’t, except by the abortionists, and only when they pronounce -without any regard for justice- that this person isn’t worth bringing into the world.
Anways your point of there only being two sexes doesn’t practically seem to lead anywhere re these biologically based issues and persons discussed here.
It helps, but it was intended more for those who think that these conditions causes us to doubt the reality of the two sexes.

Christi pax.
 
Well, I take back my previous statements then, after all, what would an xy male with female genitalia possible do if married as a male, “lesbian” acts? Uhhg.
Especially strange considering that before genetic testing existed, I presume the person in question would be thought to simply be a female with a malformed womb.
 
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