Intersexed People

[amicatholic2000]

Everyone has natural law written on their hearts. This does not mean that one cannot be deceived from it, not does it mean that one cannot callous themselves to it. If everyone could be convinced of Catholic morality as easily as you seem to make it sound, no one would ever be in a same sex relationship.

Edit: Also, Saint Thomas has written a bit about correspondence with non-Christians. Yes, he says we must use secular arguments with them (though we can use OT language with Jews and I believe with Muslims), but these secular arguments must still be consistent with Catholic doctrine. Your original posed question involved a scenario where I would be giving different advice to Catholics than non-Catholics. It doesn’t work that way.

Ok so I chose the wrong words when I said “not speaking as a Catholic.” My intent was to ask you to try to make an argument about the impossibility of any gender other than male or female that a non-Christian could be persuaded with, or if not persuaded then at least moved to consider your point of view with. With all of the diversity of belief of the society we live in, I would think that especially when it comes to issues of official terminology as a matter of public policy that it would be pretty important for Catholics to have an argument that is persuasive or at least thought-provoking for people who do not accept Christian sources of Revelation (or any sources of Revelation).

 

[amicatholic2000]

To a certain extent I feel that when it comes to issues of sex and gender God is not out to trick people who don’t have the luxury of being brought up in a world where the Doctrine of the Church was always taught to them clearly and authoritatively. If it is so fundamental to who we are and how society works (as the Church claims), you would expect it to be written on our hearts a little more deeply than a lot of other things. And yet I’m not so sure that there ever was a time or place where the male-female binary as the only possible modes of human existence was descriptive of the experience of the overwhelming majority of the population. How would you know if it was or wasn’t?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

To a certain extent I feel that when it comes to issues of sex and gender God is not out to trick people who don’t have the luxury of being brought up in a world where the Doctrine of the Church was always taught to them clearly and authoritatively. If it is so fundamental to who we are and how society works (as the Church claims), you would expect it to be written on our hearts a little more deeply than a lot of other things. And yet I’m not so sure that there ever was a time or place where the male-female binary as the only possible modes of human existence was descriptive of the experience of the overwhelming majority of the population. How would you know if it was or wasn’t?

I believe this falls under “The Fall of Man sucks” category of things.

 

[SMGS127]

Ok so I chose the wrong words when I said “not speaking as a Catholic.” My intent was to ask you to try to make an argument about the impossibility of any gender other than male or female that a non-Christian could be persuaded with, or if not persuaded then at least moved to consider your point of view with. With all of the diversity of belief of the society we live in, I would think that especially when it comes to issues of official terminology as a matter of public policy that it would be pretty important for Catholics to have an argument that is persuasive or at least thought-provoking for people who do not accept Christian sources of Revelation (or any sources of Revelation).

I get what you’re saying, but considering that we, as humans, must be either male or female, it doesn’t behoove us to recognize someone’s identification with a gender (third gender/ze, agender, both) that isn’t theologically possible. As for an argument you could make to a non-Catholic, if they are Jewish or Muslim you can reference Genesis. If they are not of an Abrahamic religion, it would be significantly harder, I agree. If you do not believe your words would make a difference, you do not have to sit and argue with someone over their identification. You merely cannot give off the impression that you accept it (which does not mean go out of your way to make sure they know you don’t; you can just not say one way or the other). If they want to know why you believe it, you can give the Catholic understanding of gender and you can also make any other theologically-consistent argument that you find persuasive.

Personally, it’s a hard argument to discredit someone who believes they are both genders without Scripture, but I could probably discount a third gender or agender model fairly decently from a secular perspective. I would reference the fact that, even in cases of severe deformity, all humans have organs, each of which individually is either male or female. There are two major differentiating (not counting progesterone) sex hormones. There are two distinct sets of reproductive organs and genitalia that arise from the same fetal materials. For an example, a certain type of fetal material can become a prostate gland OR a Cowper’s gland. There is no “third” option it can become. Arguments like those could work if you had an atheist friend who wished to discuss a third/no gender model.

 

[Rin]

To respond to a few people here. First off, Rin, I don’t know why you didn’t just quote from the analysis of the letter to the bishops from the CDF by CNS. By just referring vaguely and not quoting it, you appeared evasive.

I couldn’t find it except on Lynn Conway’s site And since he had already posted the link to that exact page, and dismissed it through the fallacy of association, I didn’t bother other than to point to its content.

That said, I did indeed look evasive, and I should have quoted it for those who didn’t follow the link (which at least I rarely do when I skim a thread I don’t participate in).

quote=Abba
[/quote]

To discuss the morality of transgenderism, you need to at least have a remote idea of what the phenomenon is. You’ve done nothing but demonstrate complete and willed ignorance as to what it entails, through continuing to speak of homosexuality and diminishing the suffering of the individuals in question even after being informed of the facts. Whether this just is a refusal to accept medical fact, or intentional use of the straw man fallacy, I don’t know.

But as long as you misrepresent what transgenderism is, this debate is completely uninteresting. It is a bit like debating with protestants who keep claiming we worship saints, even after being explained otherwise.

Not one of your quotes is relevant to the medical condition called transgenderism. The text from 1988 would have been, if the scientific premises it’s built on weren’t long since proven wrong.

For these reasons, I’m ending it here. SMGS addressed your positions well, and I dont have much to add, except that the suffering of transgender individuals is real, severe and well proven to be neurobiological in nature. They deserve compassion and love, not the contempt and condemnation I see some people throw at them. I am, to be honest, appaled by the lack of compassion, or even anti-compassion, I see among some who call themselves Catholic.

 

[Catolico65]

Allow me to post our exchange in this thread:
.

Here is actually what you said deary:

Well, first of all, the Church still considers a homosexual person [referring to their attractions] “normal.” But I’m assuming you’re meaning homosexual physical activity or relationships. In which case, while it would certainly make my life easier if moral law weren’t the way it is, I recognize that the Church [and thereby God] has doctrine on the issue and that God has issued a moral law, and I will follow it. So I guess my short and fast answer would be no, since I don’t wish for the impossible.

It is apparent your own conflicted interests are influencing your point of view. In fact this is readily apparent to anyone who is promoting the theory that homosexuality is innate.

As far as the gay lobby not being diabolical, why do you clearly ignore that they promote something that God abhors? Do you read your Bible. Pope Francis says the gay lobby is not good as well.