Intersexuality

[Green_Tea]

DesertAscetic:

Personally, I’m completely unbiased and open on this topic. I could see how the reality could be either way; either a) that there could exist a true third category of person, created by God, who is both physically and spiritually intersexed, or b) that intersexuality is a physical deformity, and spiritually their are only female and male souls, or c) both A and B could be possible.

I do not think that there is a “third category,” but I understand why people may want to think of intersexuality in terms of a “third category.” To me it seems like the basic problem is that we have fallen into the trap of thinking about gender strictly in binary terms that are strictly oppositional. There is “male” and there is “female”; the two are completely homogeneous internally and completely exclusive to each other. In this case, it makes sense to talk about a “third category.” But these strict categories do not seem to fit in any way, shape or form with our actual experience of gender. Among those who are “male” there is much difference and variation, and likewise among those who are “female.” On the same note, many who are “male” are characterized by things that are “female,” and vice versa. If we want to think of “male” and “female” as two things which are opposite each other, I think it would be more accurate and more productive to think of them in terms of a continuum or a scale: “absolute maleness” would be on one end and “absolute femaleness” would be on the other, and all actual people would be distributed in various places along the continuum. Those who are “intersex” would be those [relatively rare] people who fall closer to the center, so that they are not clearly on “one side or the other.”

I am not sure that the “continuum” idea is the best one, either, but I am pretty sure the strict binary does not make any sense at all, so at least the “continuum” would be an improvement. Perhaps someone has a better idea?

 

[Subrosa]

Where do intersexuals fall in Catholic moral theology? I mean there is a place for females and a place for males, but what about those who have been born with parts of both sexual organs? If we are body, soul, and spirit, and are created either female or male, how then do intersexuals know which one they are in order that they can fulfill God’s plan for them through marriage or perhaps the priesthood? There is all this talk about God’s plan for male and female genders, but what about others?

A valid sexual union takes place between a married man and woman.

That’s all there is.

Sub

 

[DesertAscetic]

I have several friends who identify as a third gender/sex. Quite a few actually, and there is a movement. Why aren’t any of them here? Because in general all of them are atheists/new age religion believers because they were shunned and outcast even more than myself from Christianity. They gave up on the Church utterly and found their own path because they felt so unwelcome.

I can totally understand their decision to do that, but, how did they conceptualize themselves before they experienced being outcasts in the Church? Did they truly feel to be intersexed in mind and body then as well? Or, before did they identify with one gender psychologically/spiritually (no matter how at odds this gender was with their apparent physical sex), and, as a coping devise from all the social alienation, tried to psychologically start viewing themselves as neither man or woman?

I understand that it would be hard for you to really speak for another person, so I’m just asking for your opinion on the matter. Because even if they used to identify as one male or female gender in the past, we can’t even know their reasons. It could have been that that was an initial coping mechanism.

 

[DesertAscetic]

I do not think that there is a “third category,” but I understand why people may want to think of intersexuality in terms of a “third category.” …

I am not sure that the “continuum” idea is the best one, either, but I am pretty sure the strict binary does not make any sense at all, so at least the “continuum” would be an improvement. Perhaps someone has a better idea?

I have no idea what to think yet, because I have yet to read the personal accounts of intersexed persons and see much in common besides struggle and social alienation. In terms of how each views the relationship between their gender and sex, there seems to be a great divide.

It seems obvious that there is a “continuum” of physical existence, but I have yet to find a similar continuum of intersexed persons psychological existence; or, I should say, a continuum of soul types. Most of them seem to really identify with one gender and the struggle seems to be to get society to accept them as that one gender, even though the “normal” physical markers of that gender aren’t clear. Some of them, as Pathia said, self-identify as a true third gender, but she also made a point to mention that they did this “because” they were mistreated by Church members. This makes me wonder if they REALLY feel they are a third gender, or if it’s a coping mechanism. A courageous and completely understandable one at that.

All of these questions are a matter of form vs. substance, identity vs. category. With a better understanding of the science, the psychology, and the philosophical concepts involved, I’m sure a perspective can be developed that is accurate and truly reflective of the experiences involved. I’m just trying to get to the bottom of that experience. Truly, I’m fascinated. I don’t want to just quickly affirm either “All gender is a continuum” or “All gender is binary”
to relieve cognitive dissonance.

I want to better grasp the nature of the reality.

 

[pathia]

I can totally understand their decision to do that, but, how did they conceptualize themselves before they experienced being outcasts in the Church? Did they truly feel to be intersexed in mind and body then as well? Or, before did they identify with one gender psychologically/spiritually (no matter how at odds this gender was with their apparent physical sex), and, as a coping devise from all the social alienation, tried to psychologically start viewing themselves as neither man or woman?

I understand that it would be hard for you to really speak for another person, so I’m just asking for your opinion on the matter. Because even if they used to identify as one male or female gender in the past, we can’t even know their reasons. It could have been that that was an initial coping mechanism.

When the reached adulthood they came to this conclusion, or at least in their teen years. Before that they ‘identified’ as one or the other because that is what Family/Society/Church told them that they were.

I used to identify as a third gender, but society made me such an outcast I couldn’t take it, I was forced to pick a side so to speak. I feel closest to female, so I identify as that, but as far as I am concerned both ‘male’ and ‘female’ are utterly alien species to me in most matters. I just happen to understand the ‘female’ alien a little more.

 

[DesertAscetic]

I used to identify as a third gender, but society made me such an outcast I couldn’t take it, I was forced to pick a side so to speak. I feel closest to female, so I identify as that, but as far as I am concerned both ‘male’ and ‘female’ are utterly alien species to me in most matters. I just happen to understand the ‘female’ alien a little more.

Interesting. I know this is almost impossible to know, but if you hadn’t been socialized as either female or male, do you think you’d think of yourself in terms of either gender at all? I can understand a gender feeling “alien” to you. I feel that way too. I hardly ever think of myself in terms of my gender/sexuality, and when I’m around people who do, it makes me uncomfortable. It’s just not a context I think from within.

When you say the “female” alien is a little more understandable to you, is that because temperament traits that society designates as “feminine” are closest to your temperament, or because you more identify with the experiences of women? Or both/other?

 

[pathia]

Interesting. I know this is almost impossible to know, but if you hadn’t been socialized as either female or male, do you think you’d think of yourself in terms of either gender at all? I can understand a gender feeling “alien” to you. I feel that way too. I hardly ever think of myself in terms of my gender/sexuality, and when I’m around people who do, it makes me uncomfortable. It’s just not a context I think from within.

When you say the “female” alien is a little more understandable to you, is that because temperament traits that society designates as “feminine” are closest to your temperament, or because you more identify with the experiences of women? Or both/other?

I really have no clue, I can’t speculate how I would have ended up had my intersexed status been admitted from the beginning, it was kept hidden from me, though by no fault of my family they thought they were doing what was best for me.

As for why? I don’t know, it’s just a feeling. It’s like trying to explain sight to a person blind from birth, I don’t really know the words that can convey they feeling without looping back on itself right back to the beginning.

 

[pathia]

A valid sexual union takes place between a married man and woman.

That’s all there is.

Sub

How does one identify ‘male’ and ‘female’ though? By all scientific measures, I violate any solid definition of either.

 

[v3orb]

The Church’s definition of gender is purely physical, therefore the lack of understanding toward third gender and transexual members.

 

[pathia]

The Church’s definition of gender is purely physical, therefore the lack of understanding toward third gender and transexual members.

They admit we exist though, at the very least I got that much out of the NCBC( National Catholic Bioethics Center). There is just zero direction at all, period, as to what we’re supposed to do, I get conflicting information from within the same organization. It’s not like intersexism is new, it’s been in existence since before humanity, it is in wild animals too, it isn’t a purely human condition.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

If this is true, I am extremely confused. As a Lutheran, I had no problem with there being intersexuals, it was a fact of life, but it seems like it would go against Catholic teaching. It has bothered me because it would seem like it would go against the Traditional teaching of man and woman. I wish that there would be more talk about it in a theological standpoint, because, after all it does exist. In my mind, it seems like the equivalent of heliocentrism and evolution.

That would make sense, but at the same time, it is a little disheartening–a person just does not have as many choices. But then again, we are all called to a life either of marriage, religious consecration, or singlehood (if that is a word ), and these people’s vocations are just a little more obvious.

That the Church does not speak on a topic does not mean the topic is contrary to Church teaching. That the Church has not pronounced anything specifically to do with intersexuality in no way means that she doesn’t acknowledge that it exists.

Please note that there is no official teaching on the “Big Bang” theory, either – only that Catholics are obliged to believe in the truths that God created everything, that man is created in His image, and that Adam and Eve were real and guilty of Original Sin. In the same way, intersexuals are required to adhere to Catholic teachings on chastity, even though there is no discussion of their specific condition.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Subrosa]

How does one identify ‘male’ and ‘female’ though? By all scientific measures, I violate any solid definition of either.

If this is you you’re talking about, I honestly pity the situation you are in, not speaking in any predjudicial terms, but that you have quite the problem to resolve.

The posting I made is the theological position of the Church, period.

You need to talk to a priest, maybe several, to get to a definitive answer.

Sub

 

[pathia]

If this is you you’re talking about, I honestly pity the situation you are in, not speaking in any predjudicial terms, but that you have quite the problem to resolve.

The posting I made is the theological position of the Church, period.

You need to talk to a priest, maybe several, to get to a definitive answer.

Sub

I’ve talked to many, many priests. I’ve talked to catholic bioethicists, I’ve talked to the NCBC(National catholic bioethicist center) itself, on the phone. There is no definitive answer.

I’ve been treated pretty horribly by congregations before, not clergy, there are reasons I label myself lapsed catholic. This is one of them. It feels like the Church has failed me, it has nothing to tell me, nothing it can help me with, nothing to help me settle my thoughts outside of a ‘feeling’, which they then go and say that the devil makes feelings, and temptations. They tell me everything may be wrong about how I live my life, but they offer nothing on how to live it right outside of chastity, which really isn’t an answer because we’re all called to that anyway.

 

[LittleDeb]

Where do intersexuals fall in Catholic moral theology? I mean there is a place for females and a place for males, but what about those who have been born with parts of both sexual organs? If we are body, soul, and spirit, and are created either female or male, how then do intersexuals know which one they are in order that they can fulfill God’s plan for them through marriage or perhaps the priesthood? There is all this talk about God’s plan for male and female genders, but what about others?

This one is very difficult to understand. What you are asking about is a biological difficulty but trying to understand it in Sacred terms. Intersexed, like any other physical health problem, is a result of the Fall. It doesn’t mean that an individual has sinned, it means that we are now a broken world in need of repair.

One thing that might help you to understand is that there is a difference between masculine/feminine and male/female. God is masculine yet not male. Jesus is male because God is masculine. Masculine, in its authentic definition, means “to give,” feminine means “to receive.” We are “male and female in His image” because He gives and we receive. His “image” is of giving and His image creating us is one of receiving. Clear as mud?

Our souls are masculine or feminine. Sometimes the biology doesn’t match. But sometimes it does match and yet a person thinks it doesn’t. Other times the biology is completely mixed. This can lead to some terrible confusion.

You address 2 separate issues here but both hold that one must know exactly what one’s sex is to know if one is called. Both marriage and the priesthood are actually marriage. Both must have complementarity for two to become one. That is the definition of marriage. One man and one woman are called to marriage. A priest is by definition male since he represents the Bridegroom and is married to his bride, the Church.

Intersexed people can be called to either marriage or the priesthood if it is possible to ascertain what sex they are **in fact. **And I say in fact in bold because at this time science hasn’t caught up enough with the problem. So far there are many opinions on it. Science has not been able to decide if a brain is male or female even though numerous studies have been done showing that there are obvious differences between the two. Correcting the biological problems faced by intersexuals is still in its infancy.

To be a priest one must be male since he stands In Persona Christi. To be married one must be able to consummate the marriage in the manner ordered towards the design. (functional male and female genitals.) EDIT to add: and must be complementary in their very nature. We’ve seen secular society try to get around these Divine laws and have watched it struggle and fail.

The intersexed are welcomed with open arms to worship. But to be called to anything other than the single life one must know if one is male or female right down to our very soul.

 

[pathia]

That the Church does not speak on a topic does not mean the topic is contrary to Church teaching. That the Church has not pronounced anything specifically to do with intersexuality in no way means that she doesn’t acknowledge that it exists.

Peace,
Dante

It does and has advocated gender clarification surgeries in youth, which are now rapidly falling out of disfavor due to how miserably they fail. It views ambiguous genitals as a birth defect to be corrected, however they seem to give no thought into what actually occurs when you do this.

Warning, this will be somewhat graphic and gross, but it is merely how it is.

If an infant is ambiguous and it is decided that it is female, and they will do surgery on the infant to make this gender more prominent, it will involve deepening the sexual canal. This is an open wound, and will try to heal itself to the point of which they were born. The solution is to dilate, which is done with an object that essentially looks very much like a dildo. This is required for life. This is done to infants, so obviously the infant cannot do this. It falls on the parents to dilate their own infant daughter and then teach her how to do it when she grows up.

Would anyone here be willing to do that to a child of their own, several times a week/month as it requires, just so their child fits into a sexualized ideal? I can find many posts by catholic bioethics experts saying that gender correction in youth is acceptable, yet they never make mention of what is actually required in the aftermath of such a surgery.

 

[Green_Tea]

Masculine, in its authentic definition, means “to give,” feminine means “to receive.” We are “male and female in His image” because He gives and we receive. His “image” is of giving and His image creating us is one of receiving. Clear as mud?

Our souls are masculine or feminine.

This does not make any sense to me. Among the most giving people I know in my life, many of them are women. You are saying this is them pretending as though they are masculine? Or that they have masculine souls, but their biology (and virtually everything else that has to do with gender) does not match?

 

[LittleDeb]

This does not make any sense to me. Among the most giving people I know in my life, many of them are women. You are saying this is them pretending as though they are masculine? Or that they have masculine souls, but their biology (and virtually everything else that has to do with gender) does not match?

No not at all. Yes, women are very giving. But where did they get what they are giving? In order to give something one must first receive well. Since we cannot give what we do not have, we must receive love first from God to give it out. Fr. John Corapi and theologian Peter Kreeft have some amazing resources about this.

Peter Kreeft points out that women have always been very spiritual and giving because we know how to receive love. He points out that Jesus Himself, found women’s spirituality right on the mark. Kreeft says, “He left women alone and went to change men.”

Sorry for the confusion. The reason I pointed out out the nature of masculine and feminine is that many people try to argue because of the biological confusion of intersexuality, that God created more than two sexes. Kreeft says a few important things, “Nouns are gendered, people are sexed.” and “Sex isn’t something you have, it is something you are.”

Both Corapi and Kreeft are wonderful for helping understand Church teaching. They were a great resource when I was trying to understand the male priesthood, homosexual unions, complementarity, inter-sexuality, and God as ‘He’ and not ‘she.’ Of course the best single resource was Pope John Paul the Great’s Theology of the Body. But TOB isn’t easy to understand. I’ve been studying it for 15 years and I still managed to make a statement that was confusing.

 

[Ary_girl]

Hey y’all, thanks for your replies. My post will have to be kind of short since I don’t have much time. It is still kind of confusing to say the least, but it does help to keep in mind that everyone is created either male or female in spirit. I suppose that the fall of creation is the reason for genetic disorders including issues with sexuality. I had heard people talk about theology of the body, but never heard mention of this issue. Pathia, thanks for your insight and know that you’ll be in my prayers.

 

[Subrosa]

I’ve talked to many, many priests. I’ve talked to catholic bioethicists, I’ve talked to the NCBC(National catholic bioethicist center) itself, on the phone. There is no definitive answer.

I’ve been treated pretty horribly by congregations before, not clergy, there are reasons I label myself lapsed catholic. This is one of them. It feels like the Church has failed me, it has nothing to tell me, nothing it can help me with, nothing to help me settle my thoughts outside of a ‘feeling’, which they then go and say that the devil makes feelings, and temptations. They tell me everything may be wrong about how I live my life, but they offer nothing on how to live it right outside of chastity, which really isn’t an answer because we’re all called to that anyway.

I see your dilemma.

Let me go through this posting. I may be able to help a bit.

I’ve been treated pretty horribly by congregations before, not clergy, there are reasons I label myself lapsed catholic. This is one of them.

Bad treatment by anyone for your issue is just plain wrong. Many have strayed due to abuses by Catholics. Think “Reformation.”

Never allow yourself to lose faith because of someone else’s actions. Your relationship with God is just to important. Readdress your relationship to God through Jesus. Your piety will convince others of your sincerety. They will change when they see that you are sincere.

It feels like the Church has failed me, it has nothing to tell me, nothing it can help me with, nothing to help me settle my thoughts outside of a ‘feeling’, which they then go and say that the devil makes feelings, and temptations.

Not finding the answers among those who would seem to have knowledge can be discouraging.

But quite frankly, I don’t think that the Church has ever addressed your particular “issue.” It is somewhat unique, you must admit. Keep in mind, though, that the Church, using theological reason, puts the same sexual restrictions on you and I and everyone else. In this sense you are not unique.

Each of us experiences temptations, sexually and otherwise. Most of us, the great majority, have commited sin sexually (outside marraige, masturbation, et al). The Church has the great institution given it by Christ: The Sacrament of Reconciliation. These sins can be and often are forgiven. Christ tells us, “Do not be afraid.”

They tell me everything may be wrong about how I live my life, but they offer nothing on how to live it right outside of chastity, which really isn’t an answer because we’re all called to that anyway.

The great Catholic guilt machine! We are all subject to it, moreso in the past.

But today we practice “an examination of conscience.” How often do you examine yourself for moral or ethical faults. How often do you seek God’s forgiveness through the Sacrament?

I find myself doing it more and more often. As I journey closer to God, I can feel myself experiencing a purging of sorts. Temptations of all kinds are falling away on their own. I have learned to recognize them and push them away. Prayer helps enormously.

Let me ask you, are you of an active hormonal age? Say teens to late twentys? Human sexuality is very active during this time. I know, I’ve been through it. I see my children going through it. The sexual urge is very strong. Again, you are not unique in this matter.

“Do not be afraid,” Jesus tells us. “Do not be afraid.” All things can be forgiven with sincerety of heart and repentence. Don’t think that because you are a sinner that you will lose your salvation. Everyone is a sinner, some more than others. Do not be afraid to live life. Do not be afraid to approach Jesus. If you believe in the Catholic faith, then practice it and don’t let anyone else tell you otherwise.

Prayer, time and experience will bring you to a decission concerning your special “problem.” You may decide to have surgery, which will bring its own set of sins to the table!

Maybe you will choose to live as either a man, or a woman. This onw is probably safest, speaking in a Catholic frame of mind.

I will keep you in my prayers.
Subrosa

 

[Green_Tea]

LittleDeb:

No not at all. Yes, women are very giving. But where did they get what they are giving? In order to give something one must first receive well. Since we cannot give what we do not have, we must receive love first from God to give it out.

And men don’t receive love from God?

Everything you say sounds like it should apply regardless of sexuality.