Intersting papal infallibility question

[6glargento]

i recieved an interesting question on papal infallibility from a protestant.

“If lets say the pope, in his heart, wanted to dogmatize a teaching which was 100% against the catholic faith, but the holy spirit prevented him becuase of his infallibility, would the pope be lacking free will on that occassion?”

can anyone answer thi for me?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

In a certain sense, I believe he would lack free will at that moment. But before this protestant starts saying “oh, God would never do that” let him remember the stories of the prophets. Did they all have free will when God was using them to spread his word?

 

[Verita]

Also, one could say that by taking up the position of the Pope, they are giving their consent to be guided by the Holy Spirit in this manner.

 

[joshua_b]

The person asking the question is making certain assumptions about the method which God would use to “block” the pronouncement of whatever teaching was heretical. I understand the point of the question, but I think it’s derived from our finite human understanding of God, His ways, and His Omnipotence.

 

[RNRobert]

This reminds me of John 11:49-52-

“But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, ‘You know nothing, nor do you consider that it is better for you that one man should die instead of the people, so that the whole nation may not perish.’ He did not say this on his own, but since he was high priest for that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, and not only for the nation, but also gather into one the dispersed children of God.”

Here we see how somebody gave a prophecy because of his position, almost in spite of himself.

As for the papacy, I recall reading that that one of the Empresses of Constaninople wanted a certain heresy promulgated (I think it was the monophysite heresey, but I’m not sure). There was a bishop who said he would do so if he were made Pope. So the Empress arranged have the sitting Pope sent into exile, and had the Bishop elevated to the Papacy. Funny thing is, as soon as he took the Chair of Peter, he reneged on his deal with the Empress. As a result, he shared the same sad fate as his predecessor.

 

[tee_eff_em]

i recieved an interesting question on papal infallibility from a protestant.

“If lets say the pope, in his heart, wanted to dogmatize a teaching which was 100% against the catholic faith, but the holy spirit prevented him becuase of his infallibility, would the pope be lacking free will on that occassion?”

can anyone answer thi for me?

This is a misunderstanding of “free will”. The Catechism says:

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. the choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to “the slavery of sin.”

tee

 

[Lazerlike42]

Remember that one of the ways that God can prevent this is by the death of the pope, which seems to have been the case on several occasions!

 

[Randy_Carson]

i recieved an interesting question on papal infallibility from a protestant.

“If lets say the pope, in his heart, wanted to dogmatize a teaching which was 100% against the catholic faith, but the holy spirit prevented him becuase of his infallibility, would the pope be lacking free will on that occassion?”

can anyone answer thi for me?

In his book, Pope Fiction, Patrick Madrid discusses the case of Pope Urban (?) who came very close to issuing a revision of the Latin Vulgate Bible that contained many errors. According to Mr. Madrid’s account, the Bull was drafted and circulated to the Bishops for their preview. However, before the Pope could actually sign the document and proclaim the promulgation of the error-riddled Bible, he died! And he was in excellent health prior to this point.

So, does the Holy Spirit protect the pope from teaching error?

Apparently so even when dramatic means are required to do so!

You can find an mp3 file containing this account here:

ftp://217.160.246.215/pub/audionet/EWTN_programs/Patrick_Madrid/Pope_Fiction/

 

[awalt]

Remember that one of the ways that God can prevent this is by the death of the pope, which seems to have been the case on several occasions!

Yes, I heard a story about a Pope that was insistent on doing his own translation of the Bible. He worked on it, and it was bad - the cardinals advised him not to. Within a very short time, as I recall like within ka week, of when he was going to issue his Papal statement requiring the use of the new Bible, he dropped dead!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

i recieved an interesting question on papal infallibility from a protestant.

“If lets say the pope, in his heart, wanted to dogmatize a teaching which was 100% against the catholic faith, but the holy spirit prevented him becuase of his infallibility, would the pope be lacking free will on that occassion?”

can anyone answer thi for me?

While God can certainly take away any particular will, I don’t think that’s how he would prevent error in his Church. Instead, I think the pope, while maintaining willful erroneous intent, wold be given barriers to successfully executing his intent.

Think of Jonah. Did God force him against his will, or did he simply place enough barriers such that Jonah relented?

 

[Subrosa]

i recieved an interesting question on papal infallibility from a protestant.

“If lets say the pope, in his heart, wanted to dogmatize a teaching which was 100% against the catholic faith, but the holy spirit prevented him becuase of his infallibility, would the pope be lacking free will on that occassion?”

can anyone answer thi for me?

In the first instance, the pope would not, could not dogmatize a teaching that is in any percentage against the Catholic faith. The charge and mission of the pope is to propegate the Catholic faith. Anything other would be heresy.

On the second instance, the pope makes such decrees of his own will through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which makes the decree infallible.

Point of fact - only two such decrees have been made in history which indicates the seriousness of which papal infallibility is taken.

Subrosa

 

[Spirithound]

i recieved an interesting question on papal infallibility from a protestant.

“If lets say the pope, in his heart, wanted to dogmatize a teaching which was 100% against the catholic faith, but the holy spirit prevented him becuase of his infallibility, would the pope be lacking free will on that occassion?”

I’ve actually thought about this quite a bit, and I’ll have to agree with some of the previous posters in saying that if a pope tried to dogmatize heresy, God would strike him dead.

 

[MichiganTrumbul]

In his book, Pope Fiction, Patrick Madrid discusses the case of Pope Urban (?) who came very close to issuing a revision of the Latin Vulgate Bible that contained many errors. According to Mr. Madrid’s account, the Bull was drafted and circulated to the Bishops for their preview. However, before the Pope could actually sign the document and proclaim the promulgation of the error-riddled Bible, he died! And he was in excellent health prior to this point.

So, does the Holy Spirit protect the pope from teaching error?

Apparently so even when dramatic means are required to do so!

You can find an mp3 file containing this account here:

ftp://217.160.246.215/pub/audionet/EWTN_programs/Patrick_Madrid/Pope_Fiction/

That Pope was Sixtus V. I remember that story!

MT

 

[jonk]

I’ve actually thought about this quite a bit, and I’ll have to agree with some of the previous posters in saying that if a pope tried to dogmatize heresy, God would strike him dead.

Oh, and He has, more than once:

In March 1602 Clement VIII began to preside in person. In 1605 he very much wanted to bring the debate to a conclusion. So he worked long into the night, and finally came up with a 15 point summary of Augustine’s doctrine on grace, intending to judge Molina’s proposals by it. That would have meant condemnation of Molina and probable approval of the so-called Thomists. But according to an article in 30 Days, No. 5 of 1994, on p. 46, “But, it seems barely had the bull of condemnation been drafted when, on March 3, 1605 Clement VIII died.” Another Pope had died at the right time centuries earlier. The General Council of Constantinople in 681 had drafted a condemnation of Pope Honorius for heresy - which was untrue - Pope Agatho had intended to sign it. But he died before being able.

 

[Unitas]

The Holy Spirit not only guides papal infallibility, but also the papl selection process.

God, being omnipresent, knowing all of past, present, and future, would not allow the election of a pope with the desire and ability to attempt to dogmatize heresy.

 

[peter46]

Seeing how many of you think that the death of certain Popes may be the way God protects His church, which is something I too have thought about, does anyone here know anything about Pope John Paul I. This is something which I have thouhgt about a lot, why would God allow this man to die when he was just elected to the papacy? I mean I know that we cannot understand the way God works, but one can’t help to wonder on these things.

 

[jonk]

Maybe He just wanted to make way for John Paul II.

Only kidding. I don’t know.

 

[Spirithound]

God, being omnipresent, knowing all of past, present, and future, would not allow the election of a pope with the desire and ability to attempt to dogmatize heresy.

That would be an empirical question. We could only know the answer by finding out whether any popes have indeed been struck down by God because of their desire to promulgate heresy…

Seeing how many of you think that the death of certain Popes may be the way God protects His church, which is something I too have thought about, does anyone here know anything about Pope John Paul I. This is something which I have thouhgt about a lot, why would God allow this man to die when he was just elected to the papacy? I mean I know that we cannot understand the way God works, but one can’t help to wonder on these things.

Wellll…i suppose this really is one of the logical consequences of pretty well always elected a rather old man… of course, you could subscribe to the conspiracy theories…

 

[peter46]

Maybe He just wanted to make way for John Paul II.

Only kidding. I don’t know.

lol!!!