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h1478971
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rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2010/12/msgr-pozzo-on-three-years-of-summorum.html
I don’t like the idea of tinkering with the 1962 missal.
I don’t like the idea of tinkering with the 1962 missal.
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MarkThompson
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And if the church were a democracy instead of a divinely-guided absolute monarchy, then what individual people personally like and dislike would be of importance! 
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James224
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I agree. I attend the Latin Mass often and have for about 17 years now. I don’t think this is the time. Some of the ideas seem ok but not now.
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PA650
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I think we are all tired of the Roman Rite liturgy being continually ‘reformed’ and ‘renewed.’
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James224
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I thought I should comment a little. It’s true that this is just my opinion and I would leave any changes to the wisdom of the church. I think changes to add new saints would be ok but here’s some of the problems I have with it. Traditional Catholics like myself love the king’s english as the translation in the Roman Missal. I love the Douay-Rheims Version. I say the Breviary and use the 1963 edition. It has the Pius XII Psalter which I don’t like. I love the Pius X Psalter because of the beauty of it. The Pius XII is more modern. Then, for example, in Matins, you would have to find sermons that were uplifting by modern writers and I know it wouldn’t be the same. The old breviaries are of another world and timeless. I speak of the Breviary instead of the Missal right now because it is an extension of the Liturgy. It would be a good place to put new saints before moving them to the Missal except for the reasons I mentioned. Of course, if you put the new saints in the liturgy, the english translations (and latin translation) would be more modern. Maybe in a few decades or even a century or two need to pass until we get scholars who really, really appreciate the Traditional Liturgy and understand how to make changes that are almost invisible. It can be done with the right people. The changes the church made to the liturgy and the breviary over the centuries were very organic and fairly undetectable but, today, everybody seems to want to make things shorter or more practical. If you read Fr Adrian Fortescue’s Book on the Roman Liturgy you see the proper way. Our society today is too much into novelty without really realizing it so we need to wait. I could go on but this is a start. The saints is just one example but this could apply to any possible changes.
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James224
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I want to say one more thing. People who don’t have a traditional bent or personality would not understand this. I accept the new mass and attend it about half the time. So I split my time between the two. People who don’t share our bent should go to the Latin Mass for awhile and try it and try to understand the spirituality of it. It’s different. I think if they did they wouldn’t want changes that they think they wanted. The Orthodox are the same way as well as the Eastern Rite Catholics. We are all inspired by Tradition. For me, it’s about inspiration and the language and rubrics are extremely important. Modern language and ways tend to be of this world, therefore, worldly where the old liturgy is so much more inspiring to our type of personality. That’s the best way I can explain my feelings.
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rdscheirer
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As a recent revert(2001) I would be absolutely lost in the Latin Rite. I have a very hard time finding the pages in the Hymnal when our church uses the Latin refrains- I know they’re around 307 or so but its a litle bit embarassing to me to fumble for the Hymnal in front of my wife and neighbors who think I am a “cradle” even as our Preist thought for the last five years that I was raised Catholic- Actually grew up Lutheran married a very devout Catholic- did research -read the early church Fathers- if you read them you can’t be anything but Catholic. Deacon that helped me into the Church had also been Lutheran- I was never told going thru all the education to be confirmed in the Lutheran Church that Martin Luther actually changed the Bible to agree with his idea of faith and works.It is indeed sad that his rebellion against the Church came to the schism that happened. Luther wanted to stay in the Catholic Church if it would change.
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Bob_Aliano
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Well, if all they did was add saints to the table it might be OK, there are many Feria days that could accommodate the additions. I would definitely balk at adding vernacular parts, microphones, deacons, altar girls and especially EMHC. I guess I could always shift to an accepted Eastern Rite, we have a variety around town.
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MarkThompson
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There’s traditional, and then there’s traditional, though. I wonder how many people in, say, 1620, or 1920, would have said, “Well, maybe recent saints could possibly stand to be added to the Missal, but I don’t know. It’s a lot of tinkering; it seems dangerous and unnecessary.” I’m guessing nobody. People were excited about their saints. So the question is to what extent “traditional” means preserving unchanged the books that people used to use, and to what extent it means preserving the mindset, theology, and ecclesiology that they used to have, even when that meant that they expected and welcomed changes (and would never dream of criticizing the Holy Father for making those changes). There are quite a few folks out there – just take a gander at some of those comments to the Rorate piece! – who are evidently much more concerned with embalming their Mass to keep as a museum piece, which it never was, than with propagating it as a genuine rite of the Church, which is only actually traditional view of its nature.
Strange.
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Bob_Aliano
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As I said earlier, there are plenty of feria days to accommodate additional saints; I wouldn’t regard adding saints to the calendar changing the Liturgy in fact it might eliminate some confusion to have fewer feria days. The Liturgy in its TLM form is the one stable Liturgy we have today and should be preserved; like backing-up the original computer load to revert to in the event of a total crash.
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Timothysis
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Well said. The Mass is about the sanctification of our souls, not what we “like” or “don’t like.”
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avus
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It has never been about “embalming” the liturgy but rather about protecting it until the liberals who are hellbent on change for change’s sake die off and replaced by people who will treat it with the deep respect it deserves. Those future persons can then be trusted with the slow, respectful evolution.
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MarkThompson
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The Holy Father doesn’t have to earn your trust or approval. Your personally-held opinions are irrelevant to a traditional ecclesiology. Sorry, but in trying to become uber-traditional there is a real risk of adopting the modernist viewpoint that sets up one’s own opinions derived from somewhere else (e.g., private interpretation of old Church documents; YouTube videos) over the authority of the Church. The modernist says: “I’ve investigated and studied really hard, and I’ve managed to find out exactly the right way that the Church ought to behave. Now the Pope needs to toe the line, otherwise he risks my deeming him to be in error.”
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Bob_Aliano
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Perhaps you could use a reminder of what the Holy Father said:
Apostolic Letter “Summorum Pontificum” issued Motu Proprio
Benedict XVI
“Art 1. The Roman Missal promulgated by Paul VI is the ordinary expression of the ‘Lex orandi’ (Law of prayer) of the Catholic Church of the Latin rite. Nonetheless, the Roman Missal promulgated by St. Pius V and reissued by Bl. John XXIII is to be considered as an extraordinary expression of that same ‘Lex orandi,’ and must be given due honour for its venerable and ancient usage.” Emphasis mine.
It may surprise you to learn that some of us have a problem connecting with Our Lord with sixty minutes of non-stop noise emanating from the choir loft. Some of us attend Mass with the specific intent of quiet, prayerful, respectful meditation; we are not there to play pata-cake with those around us during the sign of peace or to be entertained by pianos, guitars or choirs singing questionably appropriate music.
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ConstantineTG
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Pope John Paul II said that true tradition is not something thats frozen in time, but living. Living tradition means that the traditions is adapted to the context of today so that the people today will understand it in a clear context as has the people of the past understood it within their own context.
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ConstantineTG
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How about protecting it from those who are hell bent on preventing organic development for the sake of false sense of traditionalism? It swings both ways.
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MarkThompson
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How about if we give it the same kind of “due honor” that other Popes for centuries showed when they added saints, amended the calendar, added the Leonine Prayers, invented feasts like Christ the King, and on and on. You know, they also changed vestment styles, created the Dialogue Mass, occasionally permitted the readings in the vernacular, had musical groups on hand to perform the most up-to-date music, that sort of stuff, too. It’s the kind of honor you show something that is vigorously alive and a vital part of the liturgical and faith life of the entire Church, rather than a taxidermied specimen permitted to be shown off occasionally but otherwise to be kept in a climate-controlled case because you are fretful that it is too weak and fragile.
Right on. Because it’s such a short step from adding saints to the calendar to “pata-cake [sic].” Better to just never change anything and consider the Mass to have finally reached completion, just like the Church traditionally did in . . . when was that, exactly?
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CradleCath
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James224
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I agree. During the last 3 years, we’ve had Ordinary Rite Priests who began saying the Latin Mass use microphones through the whole Mass. So now you hear every word even during the Canon. It’s not necessary and really takes away from the beauty and timelessness of the Latin Mass. We have one old priest who still whispers the Canon and all you hear is the “Nobis Quoque Peccatoribus” but nothing else. It’s so beautiful! So the Ordinary Rite Priests have brought the Ordinary Rite into the Extraoridary Rite. If you brought the new saints into the Latin Mass, you would have to have someone today write the Latin and english translation into the Missal. It would be more modern and plain. It wouldn’t be as inspriing.
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James224
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Most of these changes were basically undetectable. They had a great respect for Tradition which isn’t the case right now. It doesn’t sound like you love the Latin Mass or haven’t had the opportunity to learn the mindset and the beauty of it yet. The mindset and spirituality of it is different and you’ve got to get the feel of it.
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