Interview with Sheikh Hamza Yusuf

[JMM159]

Am I a representative of Islam? No. …

Surprising eh?

LOOOOOOOOOOOOL

No surprising because you are such a foolish person who doesn’t even believe in the Creator Who created you and brought you from the state of nothing.

Do you know what happened to Anthony Flew after his wandering for decades with his staunch atheism?

Since you are not a representative of Islam then which Muslim will take you seriously when plenty of stuff against Islam that is already out there by the anti-Islam forces has never taken seriously by any knowledgeable sincere Muslim nor sincere non-Muslim, since that stuff is as bogus as your “arguments” because Islam is not hidden somewhere in the heaven. Islam with it’s full version is in public since 1400 years.

Despite all the “efforts” of anti-Islam forces, Islam is the fastest growing faith even in this age and not just in the whole world but even in the USA.

Do you know what the President of the USA has said about Islam, very recently in his message on Muslims’ Eid-ul-Fitr? I think you should at least listen to the President of the USA–the only Super Power of our time, if not the ex-pope JP 2 who even kissed the Muslim holy Book-The Kuran. Are you “holier” and more “infallible” than Pope JP 2?

 

[inJESUS]

Hamza Yusuf is an apologist who is lying to the gullible ‘tolerant’ peoples of the West who do not know Islam.

Hamza Yusuf:
I think it’s (i.e. Islamo-terrorism) secular - you know terrorism to jihad is what adultery is to marriage.

Does Yusuf know Islam better than Muhammad?

Letter from the Messenger of ALLAH (SAW) to the people of Najran (Narrated in Baihaqi):
“In the Name of the God of Ibraheem, Ishaaq, and Ya’qoob, from Muhammad Messenger of Allah to Asqaf of Najran, and the people of Najran: Peace be upon you…
…I call you to the worship of Allah, away from the worship of the slaves (of Allah). And I call you to the governorship of Allah, away from the governorship of the slaves (of Allah). If you refuse, then the Jizyah. If you refuse (that), then I declare war upon you. Wassalam.”

Convert, or pay the jizyah in submission and live downtrodden, or I shall declare war on you.

Now, that is Islamo-terrorism, I say.

More evidence from other Islamic scholars more authoritative than Hamza Yusuf, i.e. real Muslims who are not whitewashing Islam for white folks.

1. Al-Hanafiyah:

It has come in Fath al-Qadeer by Ibn Humaam 5/187: “Al-Jihad: calling the disbelievers to the religion of truth and to fight them if they do not accept.” Al-Kaasaani said in al-Badaa’i’, 9/4299 “To sacrifice ones strength and energy in Fighting in the way of Allah 'Azza wa-Jal with ones life, property and the tongue and whatever besides.”

1. Al-Maalikiyah:

“For a Muslim to fight against a disbeliever who is not under oath, to raise the word of Allah, or if he (disbeliever) is in his (Muslim’s) presence (in order to attack him), or upon his (disbeliever) entering his (Muslim’s) land.” (Haashiya al-'Adawi/as-Sa’eedi 2/2 and ash-Sharh as-Sagheer/Aqrab al-Masaalik by ad-Dardeer 2/267)

1. Ash-Shaafi’iyah:

Al-Baajawari said, “Al-Jihad means: al-Qitaal (fighting) in the way of Allah”, Al-Baajawari / Ibnul-Qaasim 2/261. Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani said in Al-Fath 6/2, “…and legally Jihad means sacrificial striving in fighting the disbelievers.”

1. Al-Hanbaliyah:

“To Fight the disbelievers” see Mataalib Ulin-Nuha 2/497. “Al-Jihad is al-Qitaal (fighting) and to sacrifice all strength in it to raise the Word of Allah”, see 'Umdatul-Fiqh p.166, and Muntahal-Iraadaat 1/302.

Ibn Rushd said in his Muqadamaat 1/369: “…and Jihad of the Sword: to fight the Mushrikeen for the Deen. So whoever tires himself for the sake of Allah, he strove in the way of Allah. Except that when Jihad Feesabeelillah is spoken, then it cannot be applied (to everything) in general except striving against the disbelievers with the sword until they enter Islam, or pay the Jizya with willing submission and they are under humiliation”.

Ibn Hajr said in his explanation of Sahih Al-Bukhari, Fath Al-Bari 6/29: “…and by the phrase Feesabeelillah, Jihad is implied”

allaahuakbar.net/individual_callers/hamza_yusuf/hamza_yusuf_exposes_himself.htm

:bigyikes:

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

And students of Islam say that to use this quote generally is to take it out of context and misread the meaning. At least, that’s what Sheikhs say.

So again, even if you disagree, the point is that Muslims do not agree with your picture of Muhammad’s teaching.

So? The ‘out of context’ excuse again eh, Muslim?

What was the context? Muhammad sent his troops to some other people’s land and threatened them with death, submission as dhimmis, or death? Yeah - that’s what I’ve been saying all along.

What other context can you explain this unholy instruction from your unholy prophet?

**If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them. **

pro:

He’s much more authoritative on Muhammad’s life and teachings that you are with respect to Muslims. Your problem is that you are treating historical figures and texts that need to be interpreted as concrete, obvious documents.

They aren’t, and the best you can do is make a read of them to try and gather the correct teachings. Sheikh Yusuf does this in a way that Muslims find credible; you do not.

It’s not between Hamza Yusuf and myself, pro. I have told you many times already. It’s between Muhammad bin Abdallah and Hamza Yusuf.

They can fight it out. I will stand in the place of Muhammad bin Abdallah by bringing his words here since he is dead.

I didn’t make up: **If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them. **

Those are the words of your unholy prophet.

pro:

Well, how come not a single Muslim on this board agrees that you are accurately representing Islam’s teachings? And how come you call anyone who disagrees with you a “muslim liar”?

Well, have they even come close to proving me wrong? I produce the evidence to back up what I say and you haven’t even shown that evidence to be false.

All you do is to shoot the messenger. I’m merely the messenger, pro. The message came from Muhammad bin Abdallah.

pro:

Of course you’re alleging a conspiracy theory. You have your own idea of what Islam is, and you accuse anyone who says you are wrong about Islam of being part of the conspiracy. That makes you a delusional extremist, a lot like the people who claimed Jews had a 20 million man conspiracy.

I’ll leave it to the readers to decide who between us is the delusional extremist. In the blue corner is Rodrigo Bivar who brings as evidence the words of Muhammad bin Abdallah. In the red corner is pro-universal who brings the words of a latter day white Muslim convert apologist who whitewashes Islam for the white folks.

Oh, in the red corner is that fellow who keeps trying to commit ad hominems left right and center.

pro:

You’re wrong about the teachings of the four Imams. Hamza Yusuf is a student of their work; you are not. His teaching is based on studies of their works; yours is based on a few quotes you pulled from the net.

So are the quotes wrong? I don’t think so. They are umambigulous, aren’t they? The readers can see what they mean, without the ‘interpretation’ of your whitewashing Shaykh.

pro:

And you will have missed the point again.

Your rag-tag collection of quotes from here and there is your own representation of Islam. It’s an interpretation. But it only represents what you think Islam is, not what Muslims think it is.

No, it isn’t. It is the testimony of the most authoritative Muslim of all.

Oh… I forgot to mention also backed up by the Second Caliph Umar al-Khattab.

Embrassing for you, isn’t it, when Muhammad and Umar are on my side.

pro:

So, again, if someone wnats to know what Muslims believe, they should look to a Sheikh who knows the sources and can explain the teaching. Looking to some guy who cuts and pastes quotes from answering-islam.org for information on Islam is just ludicrous.

I say to anyone who wants to know what Muslims believe, rather than the ‘toned-down white-washing PR’ from a Shaykh, then you can’t go wrong reading the words of one Muhammad bin Abdallah, apostle of Allah, the grand-daddy of all Shaykhs, the Imam of Imams.

Thank you very much.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

JMM,
Of course I’m not a representative of Islam - if I were, I would be Muslim, wouldn’t I? But as I’m not, it’s a truism.

Thanks for showing the level of ‘debate’ (if I may call it so) that you are using. Words cannot describe the looooooooooow level you’re talking at.

Chau kiddo,
Rodrigo

 

[inJESUS]

Rodrigo, your point and your quotes are clear to all. Thank you.

 

[pro_universal]

So? The ‘out of context’ excuse again eh, Muslim?

Surely you do not mean to suggest that you can’t take quotes out of context from a body of work to misconstrue them. That would just be absurd.

What other context can you explain this unholy instruction from your unholy prophet?

Lots of them, and htat’s what Sheikhs do. The fact that you don’t know the material well enough to see the context doesn’t make your claims true.

It’s not between Hamza Yusuf and myself, pro. I have told you many times already. It’s between Muhammad bin Abdallah and Hamza Yusuf.

Repeat it all you want, it won’t be reasonable. You are not a Muslim scholar. You take quotes about and from Muhammad off of the internet. Your comments represent only your view of what Muhammad teaches; people who study the religion do not agree with you.

Well, have they even come close to proving me wrong? I produce the evidence to back up what I say and you haven’t even shown that evidence to be false.

I just posted an interview with a Sheikh, if you didn’t notice. The fact that you don’t get any muslims, not even one, to come here and say “Yes, Rodrigo is correct about Islamic teaching and what it says” is pretty good evidence that Muslims don’t believe what you accuse them of believing.

So are the quotes wrong? I don’t think so. They are umambigulous, aren’t they? The readers can see what they mean, without the ‘interpretation’ of your whitewashing Shaykh.

Again, this claim that your quotes could not possibly be ambiguous or taken out of context is just silly. The context is a compilation of literally thousands upon thousands of sayings about Muhammad and from Muhammad.

Embrassing for you, isn’t it, when Muhammad and Umar are on my side.

Again, that’s your claim. Muslim scholars and Muslims do not agree with you that they support your positions. That’s the key: Muslims don’t agree that you accurately represent Muslim teaching.

I say to anyone who wants to know what Muslims believe, rather than the ‘toned-down white-washing PR’ from a Shaykh, then you can’t go wrong reading the words of one Muhammad bin Abdallah, apostle of Allah, the grand-daddy of all Shaykhs, the Imam of Imams.

The problem is that to do so would require an extensive historical study and extensive language training and extensive reading of religious texts.

You haven’t done any of the three. In fact, just a few months ago you were cutting and pasting verbatim from anti-Islamic websites, presumably because you didn’t know enough to write your own material.

Your claim to “know Islam and what it really teaches” is simply ridiculous. Muslims follow people like Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, and have their own ideas about Islam. Your problem is that you don’t believe them when they tell you, because you’re a conspiracy theorist who thinks that Muslims are all lying to protect some “hidden agenda” in their religion.

So, I’ll ask again: Who is more likely to be right about Muhammad’s teaching?

A Sheikh who spent his life studying Muslim religious texts?

Or an uneducated conspiracy theorist/plagarist on the internet (Rodrigo)?

 

[JMM159]

JMM,
Of course I’m not a representative of Islam - if I were, I would be Muslim, wouldn’t I? But as I’m not, it’s a truism.

Thanks for showing the level of ‘debate’ (if I may call it so) that you are using. Words cannot describe the looooooooooow level you’re talking at.

Chau kiddo,
Rodrigo

LOOOOOOOOOOOL

But you are certainly a “representative” of those mindless Catholics who invited you here to defend their Catholicism by wasting the Web space of this forum with your mindless arguments.

But wait…you are an athiest…right? LOOOOOL
Do you know what is to be an atheist? Or who is an atheist?

How a person who doesn’t even believe in the existence of God, can be a representative of Catholic Christianity?

The knowledgeable and sincere truth-seekers know well that the very foundations of Catholic or any version of Christianity are senseless and meaningless such as Trinity, death of Immortal, Eternal God, God being born like any human child and his penis’ foreskin being removed by Jews who took his penis in their hands, when this baby helpless tiny Jewish God was 8 days old. And not only that his birth that made his mother impure like any human child’s birth that she (the mother of Catholic “God”) had to go through purification according to New American Bible of Catholics though Bibles are not sure whether she alone went through purification or alongwith her “husband” or with her baby helpless “God”…etc.

What value all these have for an atheist who doesn’t even believe in the very existence of God…duh.!!! Though not all atheists may believers in the Evolution dogma of Darwin, but it would be interesting to know if you (Rodrigo) believe in it…though Catholic Church already bowed down to this athiest unscientific domga of Evolution by accepting it as more than an hypothesis…duh…

loool

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Surely you do not mean to suggest that you can’t take quotes out of context from a body of work to misconstrue them. That would just be absurd.

Sure but have you proven the quote is out of context and shown us the proper context? No. You just uttered yet another throw-away unevidenced line.

Actori incumbit probatio, pro. My, my, the law school at Tehran University isn’t much good at teaching their students basic logical reasoning, is it?

pro:

Lots of them, and htat’s what Sheikhs do. The fact that you don’t know the material well enough to see the context doesn’t make your claims true.

Don’t insult the intelligence of the readers, pro. How does one put **If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them. ** in the proper context?

pro:

Repeat it all you want, it won’t be reasonable. You are not a Muslim scholar. You take quotes about and from Muhammad off of the internet. Your comments represent only your view of what Muhammad teaches; people who study the religion do not agree with you.

Does the message depend on the messenger? No. I’m merely reporting the words of one Muhammad bin Abdallah. If you have a problem with those words you can either prove that I have quoted them wrong or take it up with Muhammad.

pro:

I just posted an interview with a Sheikh, if you didn’t notice. The fact that you don’t get any muslims, not even one, to come here and say “Yes, Rodrigo is correct about Islamic teaching and what it says” is pretty good evidence that Muslims don’t believe what you accuse them of believing.

Of course we wouldn’t expect Muslims to come and admit their prophet was a hateful, violent war-monger who told his followers to spread Islam by the sword.

That is so beneath even you, pro. That’s the point of debate, isn’t it? If we were to agree, then what’s there to debate? The fact is that you can’t stand being shown up by the words of your own unholy prophet. Too bad, Muslim. Too bad.

pro:

Again, this claim that your quotes could not possibly be ambiguous or taken out of context is just silly. The context is a compilation of literally thousands upon thousands of sayings about Muhammad and from Muhammad.

How is:

**If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them. **

anyway ambiguous? What other interpretation can you give us? Remember actori incumbit probatio. For a lawyer you sure don’t understand the latin legalese ‘actori incumbit probatio’, do you? Even a non-lawyer like me knows that. Perhaps you might want to ask for a refund from Tehran University.

pro:

Again, that’s your claim. Muslim scholars and Muslims do not agree with you that they support your positions. That’s the key: Muslims don’t agree that you accurately represent Muslim teaching.

Of course they do. Don’t tell me the 4 schools of fiqh contradict what I said about jihad - read the quote again.

Don’t tell me Ibn Khaldun contradicts me. Islam was spread by the sword. Uh… that’s what I’ve been telling everyone, pro. Thanks Ibn Khaldun. Muchos gracias, amigo.

pro:

The problem is that to do so would require an extensive historical study and extensive language training and extensive reading of religious texts.

You haven’t done any of the three. In fact, just a few months ago you were cutting and pasting verbatim from anti-Islamic websites, presumably because you didn’t know enough to write your own material.

You want to argue “Qatiloo allatheena la yu/minoona biAllahi wala bialyawmi al-akhiri wala yuharrimoona ma harrama Allahu warasooluhu wala yadeenoona deena alhaqqi mina allatheena ootoo alkitaba hatta yuAAtoo aljizyata AAan yadin wahum saghiroona”? Go ahead.

pro:

Your claim to “know Islam and what it really teaches” is simply ridiculous. Muslims follow people like Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, and have their own ideas about Islam. Your problem is that you don’t believe them when they tell you, because you’re a conspiracy theorist who thinks that Muslims are all lying to protect some “hidden agenda” in their religion.

I have no problems because I’m not a Muslim.

cont

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pro:

So, I’ll ask again: Who is more likely to be right about Muhammad’s teaching?

A Sheikh who spent his life studying Muslim religious texts?

Or an uneducated conspiracy theorist/plagarist on the internet (Rodrigo)?

I will leave it to the readers to decide if Muhammad bin Abdallah was right or Shaykh Hamza Yusuf is right. That way, they can tell whether I am right or you are right.

Let me leave you with this little doozie, even if from a Shia:

The Ayatollah Khomeini taught, “Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! These are hundreds of other [Koranic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.” quoted from Ibn Warraq Why I am Not A Muslim Prometheus Books 1995 p.11-12. (p.381) Amir Taheri. Holy Terror. London, 1987. p.226-227.

Chau,
Rodrigo

 

[pro_universal]

Sure but have you proven the quote is out of context and shown us the proper context? No. You just uttered yet another throw-away unevidenced line.

Actori incumbit probatio, pro. My, my, the law school at Tehran University isn’t much good at teaching their students basic logical reasoning, is it?

You’re pretending here that your use of one single quote out of an entire body of work, and claiming that the quote accurately represents both the quote and the work, is not a claim. You haven’t proven anything except that you’re capable of cutting and pasting from other people’s anti-islamic websites. There’s really nothing to “disprove.”

Does the message depend on the messenger? No. I’m merely reporting the words of one Muhammad bin Abdallah. If you have a problem with those words you can either prove that I have quoted them wrong or take it up with Muhammad.

The message does depend on the context. The fact that you don’t want to recognize that doesn’t make it any less true.

Of course we wouldn’t expect Muslims to come and admit their prophet was a hateful, violent war-monger who told his followers to spread Islam by the sword.

In other words, you think Muslims are involved in a billion man conspiracy to cover up their religion. That’s just crazy.

Of course they do. Don’t tell me the 4 schools of fiqh contradict what I said about jihad - read the quote again.

They do, but you don’t know that because you haven’t really studied any of the four schools. You just read quotes from anti-islamic websites.

You want to argue “Qatiloo allatheena la yu/minoona biAllahi wala bialyawmi al-akhiri wala yuharrimoona ma harrama Allahu warasooluhu wala yadeenoona deena alhaqqi mina allatheena ootoo alkitaba hatta yuAAtoo aljizyata AAan yadin wahum saghiroona”? Go ahead.

Seriously, do you think it makes you look smarter to use arabic transliterations that you’ve googled, when everyone knows you don’t actually speak arabic, much less the quranic arabic you’d need to read the Quran and ancient texts about Muhammad? I suppose I could go find and cut and copy some egyptian hieroglyphs to try and stump you too, but that would just be dumb, wouldn’t it?

Yet another pointless thread. You are delusional, and refuse to recognize the fact that reading from anti-islamic websites and then reproducing the material here does not constitute an honest point about what Muslims believe.

 

[pro_universal]

I will leave it to the readers to decide if Muhammad bin Abdallah was right or Shaykh Hamza Yusuf is right. That way, they can tell whether I am right or you are right.

Let me leave you with this little doozie, even if from a Shia:

The Ayatollah Khomeini taught, “Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! These are hundreds of other [Koranic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.” quoted from Ibn Warraq Why I am Not A Muslim Prometheus Books 1995 p.11-12. (p.381) Amir Taheri. Holy Terror. London, 1987. p.226-227.

Chau,
Rodrigo

case in point: Quotation from “Why I am not a Muslim”, author anonymous, supposedly proves something about what Muslims believe.

I’m not sure you can be reasoned with anymore, Rodrigo. Fears of giant conspiracies and delusions of grandeur require a kind of help no one can give you on the internet.

 

[pro_universal]

I will leave it to the readers to decide if Muhammad bin Abdallah was right or Shaykh Hamza Yusuf is right. That way, they can tell whether I am right or you are right.

Let me leave you with this little doozie, even if from a Shia:

The Ayatollah Khomeini taught, “Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! These are hundreds of other [Koranic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.” quoted from Ibn Warraq Why I am Not A Muslim Prometheus Books 1995 p.11-12. (p.381) Amir Taheri. Holy Terror. London, 1987. p.226-227.

Chau,
Rodrigo

case in point: Quotation from “Why I am not a Muslim”, author anonymous, supposedly proves something about what Muslims believe.

I’m not sure you can be reasoned with anymore, Rodrigo. Fears of giant conspiracies and delusions of grandeur require a kind of help that no one can give you on the internet.

 

[inJESUS]

I will leave it to the readers to decide if Muhammad bin Abdallah was right or Shaykh Hamza Yusuf is right. That way, they can tell whether I am right or you are right.

Let me leave you with this little doozie, even if from a Shia:

The Ayatollah Khomeini taught, “Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! These are hundreds of other [Koranic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.” quoted from Ibn Warraq Why I am Not A Muslim Prometheus Books 1995 p.11-12. (p.381) Amir Taheri. Holy Terror. London, 1987. p.226-227.
:bigyikes:

Chau,
Rodrigo

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

LOL, yet another ad hominem from pro. Can’t you even try to find out if the quotation is true? This book has been in publication for a long time - surely someone would have proven this quotation to be false by now.

It’s just another example of pro shooting the messenger, since he can’t argue about the message.

I know you can’t help it, pro. But try at least to argue the facts. That’s what a discussion forum is for.

 

[pro_universal]

I will leave it to the readers to decide if Muhammad bin Abdallah was right or Shaykh Hamza Yusuf is right. That way, they can tell whether I am right or you are right.

Let me leave you with this little doozie, even if from a Shia:

The Ayatollah Khomeini taught, “Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! These are hundreds of other [Koranic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.” quoted from Ibn Warraq Why I am Not A Muslim Prometheus Books 1995 p.11-12. (p.381) Amir Taheri. Holy Terror. London, 1987. p.226-227.

Chau,
Rodrigo

This gets even better…you didn’t take this quote from reading “Why I am not a Muslim”, you got it directly from this website:

muslimhope.com/IslamWarlikeOrPeaceful.htm

Still up to the old “cut and paste and pretend its my own”, eh Rodrigo?

 

[JMM159]

JMM,
Of course I’m not a representative of Islam - if I were, I would be Muslim, wouldn’t I? But as I’m not, it’s a truism.

The more you type, the more you display your foolishness. Do you really know what you are typing and posting here?

You claimed that “If you were a representative of Islam then you would be a Muslim”. If this is a true statement then since your a representitive of Catholic Christianity or atleast invited as a representative of Catholicism or atleast to defend Catholicism (because those mindless Catholics who invited you here are either have no guts or not good enough to defend their faith)… then you must be a Catholic Christian, no? But you are a confessed atheist. An atheist yet defending the objections raised on Catholicism. Just take a look back all of your own posts on this forum.

And yet you think you will be taken seriously by knowledgeable/sincere people?

I should remind you the advice given to you by pro: Think more, type less.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

You’re pretending here that your use of one single quote out of an entire body of work, and claiming that the quote accurately represents both the quote and the work, is not a claim. You haven’t proven anything except that you’re capable of cutting and pasting from other people’s anti-islamic websites. There’s really nothing to “disprove.”

This is a red herring. We’re talking about Muhammad’s instruction on how to ‘convert’ non-Muslims. That is the issue here.

Looks like you can’t back up your ‘out of context’ line, doesn’t it?

pro:

The message does depend on the context. The fact that you don’t want to recognize that doesn’t make it any less true.

So show us the context. Don’t blow - please show.

pro:

In other words, you think Muslims are involved in a billion man conspiracy to cover up their religion. That’s just crazy.

No, it’s not a conspiracy - you just don’t hear the Muslims say what really constitutes Islam. As I have said before, you can’t go wrong about the ‘real’ Islam from the words of Muhammad bin Abdallah.

pro:

They do, but you don’t know that because you haven’t really studied any of the four schools. You just read quotes from anti-islamic websites.

That’s yet another ad hominem, pro. You have to show that those quotes are wrong, not where I got them from.

pro:

Seriously, do you think it makes you look smarter to use arabic transliterations that you’ve googled, when everyone knows you don’t actually speak arabic, much less the quranic arabic you’d need to read the Quran and ancient texts about Muhammad? I suppose I could go find and cut and copy some egyptian hieroglyphs to try and stump you too, but that would just be dumb, wouldn’t it?

If you want to argue the Arabic - it would only slow things down as I would have to go ask a friend or relative who does speak Arabic, but what does it prove? That you have a paucity of argument.

Hey, if you want to try Egyptian Hieroglyphs, that’s fine by me too. My brother is an Egyptologist and I’ll go ask him. Why don’t we do that, pro. It was your suggestion. Over to you.

pro:

Yet another pointless thread. You are delusional, and refuse to recognize the fact that reading from anti-islamic websites and then reproducing the material here does not constitute an honest point about what Muslims believe.

It’s only ‘pointless’ according to you. To me it has proven yet again why it is dangerous to believe the words of a Muslim apologist.

 

[Montalban]

Sure. Why not? I don’t follow either one.

The point is Pro_universal’s apologist makes many remarks that are novel to Islam, the idea that the Hadith are on the same footing as the Koran is novel.

 

[pro_universal]

The point is Pro_universal’s apologist makes many remarks that are novel to Islam, the idea that the Hadith are on the same footing as the Koran is novel.

Again, on what basis did you conclude that his remarks are “novel to Islam”?

Based on your own deep, original language study of Islamic texts? Or based on what you think Islam is based on a few websites?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The more you type, the more you display your foolishness. Do you really know what you are typing and posting here?

Why do you care? I’m sure the Catholics here can see I’m making sense and you’re not. The more histrionics you and pro issue the more they will realize I am the one who’s telling the truth.
JMM:

You claimed that “If you were a representative of Islam then you would be a Muslim”. If this is a true statement then since your a representitive of Catholic Christianity or atleast invited as a representative of Catholicism or atleast to defend Catholicism (because those mindless Catholics who invited you here are either have no guts or not good enough to defend their faith)… then you must be a Catholic Christian, no? But you are a confessed atheist. An atheist yet defending the objections raised on Catholicism. Just take a look back all of your own posts on this forum.

The Catholics who invited me are defending their faith - it is just they want to be sure that the Muslims who post here are telling the truth.
JMM:

And yet you think you will be taken seriously by knowledgeable/sincere people?

Why not? I back up what I say with evidence.
JMM:

I should remind you the advice given to you by pro: Think more, type less.

We’ll let the Catholics decide that, shall we? After all, this is their forum and we are but guests.

Chau,
Rodrigo