I
inJESUS
Guest
the Sunna is secondary to Quran. First Quran, then Sunna…that’s why you find Quran-only Muslims.
- Status
M
Montalban
Guest
Simple. Show me where I am wrong. The most you’ve done is just to repeat, like a mantra “You are wrong” (just-so statements)
That’s submission for you. He’s the sheikh, what he says is true. Show me that his are true. Or, show me that my statements are untrue (other than to simply repeat that I am; or to continue your self-refuting argument about only a Moslem can know Islam).*
a) what is wrong with the source
b) would you like another quote**
and
c) how many quotes from me would make it ‘right’? (none would anyway, because you’ve already predetermined that no matter what I quote I’ve no right to)
Show me his comments on this quote.
I know you love playing the man, rather than the statement.
*Self-refuting.
You converted to Islam. How did you know it was true until you became a Moslem? You couldn’t have by your own ‘logic’ (and I’m using the term ‘logic’ in your case in the very most of liberal terms).
** Muhammad says that you’re allowed to lie. Al-lah deceived people.
See Koran 7.22
Al-lah tricked people into believing Jesus (Issa/Isa) was killed
[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them sop (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
this rendering is itself interesting, many translations say “Al-lah caused them to believe it to be so”
Lying in Islam is known as al-Takeyya (or sometimes rendered as al-Taqiyya)
Al-Takeyya is a policy whereby a Muslim may lie, deceive or omit critical truths if it promotes the spreading of Islam AND the conquest of the non-Muslim world. According to William P. Welty, Ph.D., al-Takeyya/Taqiyya is:
“The Islamic principle of lying for the sake of Allah. Falsehoods told to prevent denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned by the Qur’an, including lying under penalty of perjury in testimony before the United States Congress, lying or making distorted statements to the media such as claiming that Islam is a religion of peace and deceiving fellow Muslims when the one lying has deemed them to be apostates.” (1)
And here is the definition from an Islam encyclopaedia website:
"The word “al-Taqiyya” literally means: “Concealing or disguising one’s beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies…” (2)
freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1362038/posts
I am personally aware of this myself. Recently on a blog I debated with Keysar Trad, spokesman for the Mufti at Lakemba’s mosque. I mentioned how the dhimmi were persecuted. He replied that the Dhimmi weren’t persecuted, they didn’t have to pay the Zakat (tax; akin to a tithe) that Moslems had to pay. This was of course true, but only a half-truth, because the Dhimmi had to pay a separate tax for being dhimmi, called a Jizya (Koran 9:29), which was at 10%. So they didn’t pay a 2.5% tax, but had to pay a more severe tax. He simply thought to debate through deception
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
M
Montalban
Guest
Indeed, it’s a fundamental of Islam, that the Koran is from their god, and the Hadith (Sunna) are from men.
Pro_universal’s sheikh has put the word of the created on par with the word of the creator.
It’s such a fundamental error, I raised it to undermine this man as a credible spokesman for Islam.
(Rather than, I should note, just repeating ‘because he is, because he is, because he is’ which was Pro_universal’s debunking of Spencer)
J
JMM159
Guest
Evidence from where? You are an atheist, no? What you have to do with religious texts of Islam or even any faith when you don’t even beleive in the very existence of God?
Then what you are deducing by “backing up” from the evidence (in which you have no faith), is not what Islam teaches. A Muslim is a Muslim as long as he believes in what Islam teaches to him/her and not what atheist like you who don’t even know the Arabic language of the Kuran is qouting mindlessly.
Are you saying that to learn Catholicism we should go to those who believe wholeheatedly that Pope is actually an antiChrist leave alone an ordiniary Christian or those who believe that Rome is the whore that Bible talks about?
M
Montalban
Guest
The Qur’ān [1] (Arabic: القرآن al-qurʼān, literally “the recitation”; also called al-qurʼān al-karīm “The Noble Qur’an”; also transliterated as Quran, Koran, and Al-Quran), is the central religious text of Islam. Muslims believe the Qur’an, in its original Arabic, to be the literal word of God that was revealed to Muhammad over a period of twenty-three years until his death. Muslims regard it as God’s final revelation to humankind and view it as the closest thing to a part of God in the world.[2] Muslims also call the Qur’an the “Final Testament”, “The Book”, “Book of God” or “The Revelation.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Koran
This is, of course, a secular site. But Pro_universal must now show where it is wrong.
This is of course not to say that the Sunnah is in error. But it is not the same ‘inerrancy’ of a man, or group of men, to their god’s. Nor am I saying that Moslems all follow a “Koran alone” (Qur’aniyyin) view.
Maybe what we have here is another Islamic conundrum where they both put man on the same level as his creator, and claim not to at the same time!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Koran
This is, of course, a secular site. But Pro_universal must now show where it is wrong.
This is of course not to say that the Sunnah is in error. But it is not the same ‘inerrancy’ of a man, or group of men, to their god’s. Nor am I saying that Moslems all follow a “Koran alone” (Qur’aniyyin) view.
Maybe what we have here is another Islamic conundrum where they both put man on the same level as his creator, and claim not to at the same time!
J
JMM159
Guest
Because you really need help as you don’t even believe in the Creator who created you and brought you from the state of nothing. Don’t you think such a helpless mindless person like you need guidance and help?
If you are not an atheist but a disguised Catholic then you are a cheater and a liar thus you still not only need help but counselling too atleast from your own Church so that you should stop deceiving atleast your Church and yourself. Obviously with such deceptive attitude of yours, you will never be able to deceive any knowledgeable sincere Muslim as they are not mindless like you nor their faith is irrational nor illogical.
BTW, despite all kinds of evil propaganda against Islam by the anti-Islam forces, Islam is the fastest growing faith in the World and even in the USA in this very age. What sword Muslims are using now in the West–yes in the West–who has the most deadliest weapons ever created by any nation in the entire history of the world.
P
pro_universal
Guest
Well, you’re just repeating that the man made an error.
Let’s see the proof. On what do you base your judgment? What makes you a more authoritative scholar of the relationship between Hadiths and the Quran than Hamza Yusuf?
I think what’s really going on here is that you don’t know that much about Islam, yet you presume to have somehow discredited a sheikh. Here’s a source to comfortably assure you that you do not know what you’re talking about on this point:
qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1846&CATE=120
J
JMM159
Guest
And you are teaching to who? LOL
As a sidenote, your Bibles are first or secondary to you? Which Bible is first? The Douay Rheims Bible which says:
or The New American Bible of your same Catholic Church which changed this verse to:
M
Montalban
Guest
No I’m not. Sorry that you’re now offering dishonest revision. I stated why he’s in error, by citing evidence about the nature of the Hadith compared to the Koran.
And here you go again. Islam appeals to the illogical
So far all you’ve done is offered a ‘just-so’. Let’s see where this goes…
Except I didn’t make an ‘anti-Hadith’ argument. I didn’t even argue (in this thread) that the Hadith was in error. Your cite is about ‘Koran only’ interpretation, which I specifically said in my previous post I was not attempting to state.
In fact your site attacks two forms of critics which is sums up as both having one particular attribute…
“There is one attribute which is common to both of -them; they are unable to conceive of a Revealed Law”
(Ibid.)
No where did I deny the possibility of ‘revealed law’. Your ‘points’ are then pointless.
If you could present evidence that actually refutes a point, that would be much appreciated. But then you’re so dead-set certain that you are right any rational rebuttal will fall on deaf ears. The style of your debate reminds me very much when I discuss things with proponents of Objectivism.
In summary, you’ve misrepresented what I’ve presented; bringing me down to the evidence-lite type of posting you yourself are now famous for.
You back this up with a ‘just-so’ argument.
You repeat your already proven self-refuting ‘challenge’.
You offer as evidence a site that doesn’t address what I raised.
Complete Islam encapsulated. The removal of rationality from oneself.
M
Montalban
Guest
But of course you as a Moslem are free to critique Christian belief. Were it only so the other way!
P
pro_universal
Guest
What? You disputed Hamza Yusuf’s characterization of mulitply transmitted hadiths. I posted a refutation.
It does refute your point. Perhaps you have some issues with reading comperehension that make it more difficult for you to read and understand the text, but it’s there.
You made a statement about the status of the Quran in relation to hadiths. I posted an explanation of that from an Islamic source that supports Hamza Yusuf’s statement.
You’re not to be faulted for not knowing this, because you’re not a Sheikh or anyone with any demonstrable amount of knowledge of the Muslim faith. But you should hold yourself accountable for making broad pronouncements on someone else’s religion, when you know that you haven’t actually studied it all that much.
S
ssejllenrad
Guest
Sorry to seem stupid but what is the big deal 'bout this overly repeated “shaving” topic?
M
Montalban
Guest
Have you heard of the Koran?
This is the same circular argument that Pro_universal states.
I
inJESUS
Guest
Montalban, reread Rodrigo’s posts…they’re pretty clear…you really don’t need to go into hadith/Quran comparison…
I
inJESUS
Guest
you answered it…stupidity
or let’s say, literalism which makes people sometimes seem stupid.
M
Montalban
Guest
I choose my own path
I
inJESUS
Guest
M
Montalban
Guest
I prefer the lone wolf (without cub*) method
*-obscure reference to several Japanese samurai films
e.g imdb.com/title/tt0068815/
and now an up-dated version
imdb.com/title/tt0367983/
L
Lance
Guest
You should thank God that you nor none of yur family members were in the Twin Towers,the planes that hit them, on Flight 93,r in the Pentagon or the plane that hit it on 9/11. Thank God you do not have members of your family in the armed forces. Thank God you were not on the tranes in Spain or in the London subway when Muslims bombed them. Thank God your kids were not in the Russian school they attacked. The only reason they have not attacked you is because you have not yet been in a place they chose to attack. As soon as they feel capable they will attack you and try to destroy your family unless you convert.
P
pro_universal
Guest
Also remember to give thanks that they weren’t in the Oklahoma City Federal Building, the 1996 Atlanta Olympic park bombing, the Omagh bombing, or the numerous abortion clinic bombings.
More people have been killed in the UK and Ireland because of Christian on Christian violence than were killed in the 7/7 attacks.
What about the Chechen kids who were in Grozny when the Russians sacked the city?
The only reason you are focused on muslims is that you’re not looking for problems elsewhere. This is a human problem, not a Muslim/Christian/Jewish problem, and humanity is the answer, not bias against one religion over another.
- Status