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DianaCC
Guest
At what point does alcohol intoxication become a sin?
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Bookcat
Guest
catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=33754
catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=33231
and
Catechism:
1809 Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will’s mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. the temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion: "Do not follow your inclination and strength, walking according to the desires of your heart."72 Temperance is often praised in the Old Testament: "Do not follow your base desires, but restrain your appetites."73 In the New Testament it is called “moderation” or “sobriety.” We ought “to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world.” (From: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P65.HTM)
2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.
See also: Romans 13: 12-14
catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=33231
and
Catechism:
1809 Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will’s mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. the temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion: "Do not follow your inclination and strength, walking according to the desires of your heart."72 Temperance is often praised in the Old Testament: "Do not follow your base desires, but restrain your appetites."73 In the New Testament it is called “moderation” or “sobriety.” We ought “to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world.” (From: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P65.HTM)
2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.
See also: Romans 13: 12-14
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Sherry_G
Guest
When you become intoxicated. That is the point. Becoming intoxicated means that you have crossed the line.
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Aelred_Minor
Guest
Well, problem is different people will define “intoxicated” differently.
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DianaCC
Guest
This site reads: “GLUTTONY Inordinate desire for the pleasure connected with food or drink. This desire may become sinful in various ways: … by consuming alcoholic beverages to the point of losing full control on one’s reasoning powers. Intoxication that ends in complete loss of reason is a mortal sin if brought on without justification”
What constitute “losing full control on one’s reasoning powers” and “complete loss of reason”? Does that mean being unable to stand up, or does it mean unable to do algebra?
This site reads: “DRUNKENNESS Overindulgence in alcoholic beverages. On Catholic moral principles, the degree of sinfulness in excessive drinking depends on how this excess is known to affect this particular drinker. It is a grave matter if it is foreseen that this drink will cause one to lose the use of one’s senses or will put one in such a state that he or she is no longer able to distinguish right from wrong. It is a venial matter if one has reason for believing that this amount of drinking, though actually excessive, will neither deprive one of the use of one’s senses or of the power to distinguish right from wrong.”
What constitutes “to lose the use of one’s senses”? Does that mean thinking an unfunny joke to be funny, or are we talking about something more like outright deafness?
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DianaCC
Guest
So if my blood alcohol content is 0.079% it’s not a sin?
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Aelred_Minor
Guest
This question seems to come up a lot on these forums. Unfortunately due to different alcohol tolerances and many other variables we can’t just say something like “three beers, but no more.”
I would consider questions like these when discerning how to drink:
-Am I drinking this beverage as a beverage, or taking it like a drug to achieve an altered state of consciousness?
-Am I more likely to commit a given sin after drinking this amount of alcohol?
-Will I be engaging in activities which would be made more dangerous after drinking this alcohol (most famously, driving)?
-Does drinking this amount of alcohol (either in one sitting, or in one’s drinking habits in longer term) seriously endanger my health?
I would consider questions like these when discerning how to drink:
-Am I drinking this beverage as a beverage, or taking it like a drug to achieve an altered state of consciousness?
-Am I more likely to commit a given sin after drinking this amount of alcohol?
-Will I be engaging in activities which would be made more dangerous after drinking this alcohol (most famously, driving)?
-Does drinking this amount of alcohol (either in one sitting, or in one’s drinking habits in longer term) seriously endanger my health?
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Bookcat
Guest
By the way those definitions were formulated there in the Links to the Catholic Dictionary are by Fr. John Hardon SJ who is a was a very good Theologian whose cause has even been introduced for Sainthood (he is now “Servant of God”. They are quite classic distinctions. It is good to read them a few times. There is some good info there.
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Bookcat
Guest
By the way those definitions were formulated there in the first two Links above to the Catholic Dictionary are by Fr. John Hardon SJ who is a was a very good Theologian whose cause has even been introduced for Sainthood (he is now “Servant of God”. They are quite classic distinctions. It is good to read them a few times. There is some good info there.
Drinking alcohol for most is not a sin. But when one drinks more than one should…sin starts.
The key is the virtue of temperance.
(and of course one should not “drink and drive” etc)
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PatriceA
Guest
To me “to lose the use of one’s senses” is to act differently than your sober character, meaning you will say things and do things that you wouldn’t do unless you are under the influence of alcohol. If it causes people to see you as a completely different person because your inhibitions are significantly lowered or completely gone by drinking, then I think I would say you have lost the use of your senses. That point though may be different for each person depending upon their body types, metabolism, etc. That’s why one can not say three beers and then you’re sinning. And the point may even be different for each person for each scenerio, like if they’re drinking on an empty stomach, or drinking a particular drink that has a higher alcohol content then they’re use to.
At least that’s the way I’ve always thought of it.
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Sherry_G
Guest
Well, the OP was concerned because they were intoxicated and wondered if it was a sin. If a person themselves judges that they are intoxicated, I was assume they are correct.
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Calgar
Guest
I think the gluttony definition is a pretty good way to look at it.
Many statutes on public intoxication give pretty good descriptions of what drunkeness is.
A person commits the crime of public intoxication if he appears in a public place under the influence
of alcohol, narcotics or other drug to the degree that he endangers himself or another person or
property, or by boisterous and offensive conduct annoys another person in his vicinity.
Southern Baptists don’t believe drinking alchohol is a sin, but the danger of the sins drinking could lead to far outweigh the need to drink alchohol at all.
Many statutes on public intoxication give pretty good descriptions of what drunkeness is.
A person commits the crime of public intoxication if he appears in a public place under the influence
of alcohol, narcotics or other drug to the degree that he endangers himself or another person or
property, or by boisterous and offensive conduct annoys another person in his vicinity.
Southern Baptists don’t believe drinking alchohol is a sin, but the danger of the sins drinking could lead to far outweigh the need to drink alchohol at all.
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Sherry_G
Guest
Point of clarification: Most people who get drunk fail to realize it or admit it. That is the crux of this problem. I grew up in a pretty sad situation surrounded by alcoholics. YOu could ask any one of these folks if they were drunk and their answer would be “No…I can handle myself and still drink whenever I want”. That is called “Denial”, which is a convenient crutch for an alcoholic.
I agree that drinking alcohol in itself is not wrong,afterall, Jesus did drink wine and the wine used in the celebration of the Holy Eucharist becomes the Blood of Christ while still under the appearance of wine and the scientific, chemical would still be called wine as a scientific identification.
However, if you drink until you feel “buzzed” as I hear many people say, you are committing a sin. If you were tested at that point, you would be considered drunk by a policeman or a court of law. I pray constantly for those who are afflicted with the disease of alcoholism. The only known remedy is to stop drinking entirely and forever. AA has been proven to be a valuable tool, but the alcoholic must be willing to accept that he has the disease and turn to God for help.
I agree that drinking alcohol in itself is not wrong,afterall, Jesus did drink wine and the wine used in the celebration of the Holy Eucharist becomes the Blood of Christ while still under the appearance of wine and the scientific, chemical would still be called wine as a scientific identification.
However, if you drink until you feel “buzzed” as I hear many people say, you are committing a sin. If you were tested at that point, you would be considered drunk by a policeman or a court of law. I pray constantly for those who are afflicted with the disease of alcoholism. The only known remedy is to stop drinking entirely and forever. AA has been proven to be a valuable tool, but the alcoholic must be willing to accept that he has the disease and turn to God for help.
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fred_conty
Guest
I would make a good southern baptist in this case.
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wjp984
Guest
at the point when you start committing other sins due to the fact that you are drunk, While the sins you commit while drunk may be mitigated, the fact that you go drunk and put yourself in a state of mind more suceptable to sin is still a sin.
Also, drinking and driving is a sin because you are endangering others.
Also, drinking and driving is a sin because you are endangering others.
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stringbeanduck
Guest
It’s really not that hard to define.
The “line” is where you are not in control of the the decisions you make. In other words being slightly relaxed/buzzed on alcohol, where you feel some euphoria and are in control of your thoughts and actions isn’t the line. When it affects your decision making, that’s when you have drank to excess.
Now everybody is different. Some people can’t get that nice buzzed/relaxed feeling without acting stupid and making decisions they wouldn’t normally do. In that case they probably shouldn’t drink much at all.
Quote from the Baltimore Catechism:
The “line” is where you are not in control of the the decisions you make. In other words being slightly relaxed/buzzed on alcohol, where you feel some euphoria and are in control of your thoughts and actions isn’t the line. When it affects your decision making, that’s when you have drank to excess.
Now everybody is different. Some people can’t get that nice buzzed/relaxed feeling without acting stupid and making decisions they wouldn’t normally do. In that case they probably shouldn’t drink much at all.
Quote from the Baltimore Catechism:
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