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Intrigued by Catholicism, but just can't convert for many reasons
- Status
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cheezey
Guest
to Burdensome1
“Being Catholic has always been unpopular to Americans.”
Yikes! Don’t get caught saying anything like that in Boston or New York.
“Being Catholic has always been unpopular to Americans.”
Yikes! Don’t get caught saying anything like that in Boston or New York.
C
cheezey
Guest
to gratefulfred:
Jesus Christ established the Church. And remember that He uses the word Kingdom far more often the word Church.
Jesus Christ established the Church. And remember that He uses the word Kingdom far more often the word Church.
L
LittleRose
Guest
Calilobo, there are enough questions in your post for several threads. 
I’m glad you are asking questions. In the interests of brevity, I will confine myself to the following.
You have a lot of questions about the liturgy, which has undergone some changes in the past few decades, largely to try to make it more understandable. You will also find that the style will vary a bit from one parish to another, and even from one mass to another. (At my parish we have traditional music at some masses, and more “lively” music at others. People pick what works for them.)
Even with these surface differences, the gestures and symbolism of the mass remain very consistent over the decades and centuries, because they have their roots in ancient times and in ancient teachings. You mention people who find Catholic worship empty. People who do not understand the history and symbolism behind Catholic worship are usually the ones who find it so. Not because it is actually empty, but because they don’t understand it. Much the way many of my high school classmates decided Spanish was a “stupid language”. This clearly does not reflect reality, since Spanish is actually a beautiful and interesting language. What it shows is that my classmates back then experienced frustration at the hard work they had to do to understand a new language. Writing it off as “stupid” excused them from doing that work, just as writing the liturgy off as “empty” gives many Catholics an excuse for not learning more about Catholic worship (and by extension, some of the more challenging points of Catholic theology). Many Catholics who leave the church because they think the liturgy is empty return to it when they discover it is not. This is usually after much prayer and study.
What these “re-verts” discover through that prayer and study is what we have that cannot be had in a Protestant church–an unbroken line of aposotlic authority promulgating consistent teachings and ancient worship practices dating back over 2,000 years. The faith is not “dead and boring” as you put it. It is very much alive.
The thing about Catholic worship is that it is not intended to merely entertain or create momentary warm-fuzzies or excitement. It is meant to do honor to God, to recognize His greatness and our frailty. There is no more poignant reminder of that frailty than the effort it takes to worship him with our whole heart, even when we are tired, or don’t feel like it. One’s relationship with God takes effort, much like one’s marriage. (Incidentally, marriage is important to Catholics partly because it is an illustration of Christ’s relationship with his Bride, which is the Church.) Every word, gesture, and object in Catholic liturgy has a meaning. There is too much to explain here. Inquiry and RCIA classes at your local parish are a great place to start learning about this if you are interested. Just check the bulletin.
Speaking of parish bulletins, most parishes that I have ever been to have social events, bible studies, prayer groups, ministries to the sick or the poor, religious education classes for kids, RCIA classes for adults interested in becoming Catholic or just learning about Catholicism, and so on. The parish bulletin is where announcements and contact information for these things can be found. Heck, check bulletins at multiple parishes if you like. Each parish is a little different. My parish even has a ladies’ sewing circle. We do get involved in each other’s lives and in the community in general. If you want to meet people to talk to about the faith, check out those announcements and get involved with something. People will be there.
As for priests and nuns, they are as human as the rest of us, and some relate to people better than others.
Oh, by the way, the whole “catholic guilt” thing is an invention of people who don’t understand how wonderful God’s mercy in sacramental confession is. I always tell people it’s like going to the dentist for regular cleanings. It can be uncomfortable, but you’ll love that good clean feeling you have afterwards. Besides, if you’re willing to be uncomfortable to keep from losing your teeth, you should be even more willing to be momentarily uncomfortable to keep from losing your soul. Some people stay away from the confessional (and even the dentist) out of fear or pride. I can’t speak for every dental experience, but I can say there is nothing to fear in the confessional. Believe me, unless he was just ordained yesterday, that priest has heard everything!
Sorry for the long response. Hope it helps!
I’m glad you are asking questions. In the interests of brevity, I will confine myself to the following.You have just answered your own questions here. Catholic belief and practice (including our social teachings, theology, and our liturgy are often called a “seamless garment”. Destroy one of these, and the others become pointless. That is why the Church does not change her dogmas to satisfy cultural whims. There have always been dissenters (even in the days of the Apostles, you will find if you read Scripture), and there probably always will be. The Church knows this. You ask why the church doesn’t tolerate political dissent, and yet you also ask why it doesn’t “excommunicate people left and right anymore”. The thing is, the Church does not excommunicate people lightly, which is why it is possible to feel that the church is both intolerant and yet too tolerant. That is to say, the Church is firm in its teachings, but moderate and merciful in its approach to those who do not follow them, which is why excommunication is reserved for very particular circumstances.
You have a lot of questions about the liturgy, which has undergone some changes in the past few decades, largely to try to make it more understandable. You will also find that the style will vary a bit from one parish to another, and even from one mass to another. (At my parish we have traditional music at some masses, and more “lively” music at others. People pick what works for them.)
Even with these surface differences, the gestures and symbolism of the mass remain very consistent over the decades and centuries, because they have their roots in ancient times and in ancient teachings. You mention people who find Catholic worship empty. People who do not understand the history and symbolism behind Catholic worship are usually the ones who find it so. Not because it is actually empty, but because they don’t understand it. Much the way many of my high school classmates decided Spanish was a “stupid language”. This clearly does not reflect reality, since Spanish is actually a beautiful and interesting language. What it shows is that my classmates back then experienced frustration at the hard work they had to do to understand a new language. Writing it off as “stupid” excused them from doing that work, just as writing the liturgy off as “empty” gives many Catholics an excuse for not learning more about Catholic worship (and by extension, some of the more challenging points of Catholic theology). Many Catholics who leave the church because they think the liturgy is empty return to it when they discover it is not. This is usually after much prayer and study.
What these “re-verts” discover through that prayer and study is what we have that cannot be had in a Protestant church–an unbroken line of aposotlic authority promulgating consistent teachings and ancient worship practices dating back over 2,000 years. The faith is not “dead and boring” as you put it. It is very much alive.
The thing about Catholic worship is that it is not intended to merely entertain or create momentary warm-fuzzies or excitement. It is meant to do honor to God, to recognize His greatness and our frailty. There is no more poignant reminder of that frailty than the effort it takes to worship him with our whole heart, even when we are tired, or don’t feel like it. One’s relationship with God takes effort, much like one’s marriage. (Incidentally, marriage is important to Catholics partly because it is an illustration of Christ’s relationship with his Bride, which is the Church.) Every word, gesture, and object in Catholic liturgy has a meaning. There is too much to explain here. Inquiry and RCIA classes at your local parish are a great place to start learning about this if you are interested. Just check the bulletin.
Speaking of parish bulletins, most parishes that I have ever been to have social events, bible studies, prayer groups, ministries to the sick or the poor, religious education classes for kids, RCIA classes for adults interested in becoming Catholic or just learning about Catholicism, and so on. The parish bulletin is where announcements and contact information for these things can be found. Heck, check bulletins at multiple parishes if you like. Each parish is a little different. My parish even has a ladies’ sewing circle. We do get involved in each other’s lives and in the community in general. If you want to meet people to talk to about the faith, check out those announcements and get involved with something. People will be there.
As for priests and nuns, they are as human as the rest of us, and some relate to people better than others.
Oh, by the way, the whole “catholic guilt” thing is an invention of people who don’t understand how wonderful God’s mercy in sacramental confession is. I always tell people it’s like going to the dentist for regular cleanings. It can be uncomfortable, but you’ll love that good clean feeling you have afterwards.
Besides, if you’re willing to be uncomfortable to keep from losing your teeth, you should be even more willing to be momentarily uncomfortable to keep from losing your soul. Some people stay away from the confessional (and even the dentist) out of fear or pride. I can’t speak for every dental experience, but I can say there is nothing to fear in the confessional. Believe me, unless he was just ordained yesterday, that priest has heard everything!Sorry for the long response. Hope it helps!
C
CaliLobo
Guest
Hey moderators don’t close this thread yet; I’ll reply after work today.
C
CaliLobo
Guest
Actually they don’t. Polls show most Catholics use contraception, and most Catholics voted for Obama. And I read Catholics on this forum admitting that most Catholics are poorly catechized.
A common argument by Catholics, but how can Catholics claim 1.2 billion members when most of them don’t go to Mass, go to confession, have basic biblical knowledge, put too much devotion to Mary and the saints, or follow the teachings of the Vatican?
Speaking of Magisterium, isn’t the only reason why the Vatican politically opposes gay marriage rights, contraception, and abortion because of the Magisterium–simply because the pope and bishops say so? I mean, there’s nothing about politics in the Bible–Jesus personally said he didn’t come to bring peace but a sword, but was also referred to as Prince of Peace. Which means he didn’t come to bring sociopolitical peace, but rather peace of the soul. And there’s nothing about holy tradition that can clue us in as to how to vote politically.
So many books today by Protestants, like “Unchristian” by David Kinnaman, write about how young people are turned off by the Church’s meddling with politics, its anti-gay and anti-woman image, its behind-the-times image, and its judgmental image. These authors say that its imperative that the church rethink how it engages socially, politically, and ministerially, for it to win back the younger generation, who is turned off by organized religion in general.
Isn’t the answer of the Catholic Church simple–just to change the Magisterium with respect to social issues to win back the younger generation, who want religion that can connect with their era and their culture?
Isn’t Gospel preaching more important than politics??
How would a Catholic parish welcome a woman who has had an abortion? How would a Catholic parish welcome someone who honestly believes he was born naturally gay?? How would a parish honestly be welcoming to these people if the Vatican politically opposes what they did in life??
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
Some may be poorly Catechized, but you aren’t at all. We have one woman who had an abortion who is up for Beatification, right now. The Church is the place you go if you are a sinner. Gay people aren’t rejected or scorned in the Church, try reading the Catechism if you want to know what the Church says about homosexuality. The last gay woman I knew in the Church was the head of Catholic Education for the Archdiocese and the last gay man the highest paid music director.
The point about them was that they accepted Catholic teaching about chastity and sacramental marriage.
You want politically correct human organizations that run churches to fit your political views, I’m sure you can find a plethora of them in the yellow pages. You want the Truth, you want to get close to God? You want to learn a bit of humility and have wonder and miracles and healing? You come Home for that.
You don’t seem to be looking for the True God, you seem to be looking for what are, in your own opinion, perfect people. Good luck with that.
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cheezey
Guest
How would a Catholic parish welcome a woman who has had an abortion? Or How SHOULD a Catholic parish welcome a woman who has had an abortion? How SHOULD a Catholic parish welcome someone who honestly believes he was born naturally gay?? How SHOULD a parish honestly be welcoming to these people if the Vatican politically opposes what they did in life??
Hopefully the woman who had an abortion regrets it and has asked for forgiveness.Who would give her this forgiveness? What better place to receive her forgiveness from Him but through the Church that began with Christ, who told us to Love; with love comes forgiveness. Hopefully, the “naturally” gay person, who genuinely loves another, not those who sin just to sin, would be welcomed also. The catechism suggests that we hate the act, not the person; that the persons are to be treated with the utmost respect as we should with all others.
Luke 6:37 Judge not: and you shall not be judged. Condemn not: and you shall not be condemned. Forgive: and you shall be forgiven. He did not condemn the woman at the well, the adulteress about to be stoned; and how many times are we to forgive? As often as it takes…
F
findingmyself08
Guest
This.
You said what I was going to say so succinctly.On a further note, to the OP question of “How would a parish honestly be welcoming to these people if the Vatican politically opposes what they did in life??”:
We all sin. No one is perfect. The Catholic Church understands that. So what would a parish do if these people approached them? They would treat them with kindness, love, and forgiveness. The quote cheezey posted above expresses that the best.
The parish would treat these people as they treat any sinners - hate the sin, love the sinner. We don’t hate the person for who they are (as you can’t change that - you can’t change that the woman had an abortion, you can’t change someone who is homosexual into a heterosexual), we hate the action they have committed (the murder of their child through abortion or the homosexual act). It’s the same as saying, you don’t hate your brother who stole your candy, you hate the action he has committed - stealing your candy.
The Catholic church also believes that no matter how great our sin, we can always be forgiven. So how would the parish, the church, the Vatican welcome those who have sinned, but wish for forgiveness? With loving, opening arms.
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247cath
Guest
Good point, being Catholic has traditionally been unpopular in the red states with the exception of Louisiana, but has traditionally flourished in the blue states. For reference look at the KKK and its strongholds. Support for the KKK was not only given for its racist policies, but for being anti-Catholic and anti-semantic and nativist.
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R_C
Guest
R
R_C
Guest
J
jed1801
Guest
It’s funny - I felt the same way about many of the items you speak of for years. It was not until I felt the same desires you do to explore the Church that I changed my mind.
To outsiders, the liturgy can look like “empty rituals” and I can see where some of the Vatican’s viewpoints can be hard to understand. It’s not until I researched, and had many conversations about the meaning behind the sacraments and the Church’s teachings that I started enjoying and appreciating them.
Yeah, previous protestant churches I’ve been a part of may have more vibrant music, but the reason I’m joining the Catholic Church is to be closer to Jesus Christ, which is the most important thing.
I will pray for you while you figure out your path.
To outsiders, the liturgy can look like “empty rituals” and I can see where some of the Vatican’s viewpoints can be hard to understand. It’s not until I researched, and had many conversations about the meaning behind the sacraments and the Church’s teachings that I started enjoying and appreciating them.
Yeah, previous protestant churches I’ve been a part of may have more vibrant music, but the reason I’m joining the Catholic Church is to be closer to Jesus Christ, which is the most important thing.
I will pray for you while you figure out your path.
E
eddie_too
Guest
all of your comments about not being able to convert have substance.
for me, whenever these factors in the Church arise, i always guided back to the Gospel of John, Chapter 6 (i am going from memory here) where Jesus preaches the Doctrine of the Eucharist and many who have been listening to Him object and turn from Him and leave.
Jesus turns to the Twelve when He sees so many who were formerly following Him but found the Doctrine of the Eucharist a stumbling block and asks the Twelve (and i am paraphrasing here) if they too are going to leave, and i believe it is Peter who responds, to whom would we go.
that is the essence of the Holy Catholic Church. where else in this world can we turn. to whom else in this world can we turn.
only Jesus suffered and died for my sins. moses did not. marx did not. martin luther did not. no one else loved me that much.
for that reason, where do i go if i leave the Church Jesus gave to me, a lost sheep, as my shepherd?
if, as protestants seem to believe, the Church Jesus founded lost the Grace given the world by the Father through the Life, Death and Resurrection of His Only Son, in what is there left to believe.
there are riches beyond our finite intellects to comprehend in the teachings, the practices and the history of the Catholic Church and yet these are only tools that allow us to enter ever more fully in to the Divine mysteries that our Loving Creator has made known to us through His Divine Son and other interventions in to human history.
so, that is what i always turn to when doubts enter in to my mind, where would I go?
for me, whenever these factors in the Church arise, i always guided back to the Gospel of John, Chapter 6 (i am going from memory here) where Jesus preaches the Doctrine of the Eucharist and many who have been listening to Him object and turn from Him and leave.
Jesus turns to the Twelve when He sees so many who were formerly following Him but found the Doctrine of the Eucharist a stumbling block and asks the Twelve (and i am paraphrasing here) if they too are going to leave, and i believe it is Peter who responds, to whom would we go.
that is the essence of the Holy Catholic Church. where else in this world can we turn. to whom else in this world can we turn.
only Jesus suffered and died for my sins. moses did not. marx did not. martin luther did not. no one else loved me that much.
for that reason, where do i go if i leave the Church Jesus gave to me, a lost sheep, as my shepherd?
if, as protestants seem to believe, the Church Jesus founded lost the Grace given the world by the Father through the Life, Death and Resurrection of His Only Son, in what is there left to believe.
there are riches beyond our finite intellects to comprehend in the teachings, the practices and the history of the Catholic Church and yet these are only tools that allow us to enter ever more fully in to the Divine mysteries that our Loving Creator has made known to us through His Divine Son and other interventions in to human history.
so, that is what i always turn to when doubts enter in to my mind, where would I go?
C
cheezey
Guest
Unfortunately, this does not mean that there aren’t some errant priests/minsters out there who would impose their misguided and, for lack of a better word, secular beliefs / judgments on some of those who need to be forgiven and/or advised. In fact, one told me (the man had NEVER met me), that I am certainly going to hell for marrying outside my faith. Nice guy, huh? I hadn’t even mentioned my specific Christian faith, though he could have assumed since I called him. He should have advised me of the concerns that this may bring. It seemed that once I said “Jewish” he was bent on damning me and hanging up loudly when I reminded him that Jesus was Jewish. I in fact learned a lot about Jesus’ faith through my husband. And each faith was respected, honored, and quite educational. And now I am more familiar with the Messianic Jewish faith!! (Jews for Jesus, a.k.a, Christians who still follow their Jewish heritage. At least, as I understand it…
C
CaliLobo
Guest
No it’s not vague. Statistics show that more people leave Catholicism in the US than enter it. Statistics show most Catholics contracept (a very alive topic on this forum). Statistics show Protestants are more likely than Catholics to vote against abortion and gay marriage rights (and ironically, Protestant churches tolerate political difference whereas the Vatican doesn’t!) Catholics concede that Protestant converts have a lot of Biblical knowledge, and some accuse Protestants of hijacking the Catholic Church (all topics discussed in this forum)!
With that kind of weak manifestation of their faith, can we be honest and concede there are NOT 1.2 billion Catholics, as many keep saying? Protestant churches are much more honest and will deny that people who show that kind of weakness are true believers. To us the situation is more dire… statistics show only 4% of people under 30 attend church regularly. The situation is even more dire in Europe, from the testimonies of missionaries to England, France, Netherlands, Poland, Russia, and Lithuania that I have met. In all of these countries, the Anglican, Catholic, and Orthodox churches are MORIBUND.
Where is the desire among lay Catholics for REVIVAL?
Exactly. So how does meddling into politics and opposing people’s secular civil rights fit in with not condemning them? How is this open arms, to say they don’t have the same civil rights as men to choose what to do with their own bodies, or that they don’t have the same rights as straight people to form committed, loving relationships?? Is this open arms? No, more like a message of hate.
What’s so immoral or moral about meddling into secular politics? What does this have to do with Gospel preaching?? Or even love?? Why does politics even matter?? Why don’t we see the Catholic Church advocating bringing back laws against divorce? Why don’t we see the Catholic Church advocating bans on porn? Has the abortion and gay rights issue hijacked the Catholic Church? How do we know that the Catholic Church isn’t hijacked by the USCCB? Isn’t there an honest debate between the conservative and liberal Catholics going on here? I don’t see the much-touted unity of the Catholic Church.
Yes, some gays and some who have had abortion will still enter the Church. But let’s be honest, most will feel angry, condemned and judged.
Exactly. Boston and New York, taken over by secular progressives because the Catholic Church is moribund there.
C
cheezey
Guest
Regarding my statement that you quoted, I was actually referring to the very strong Irish Catholic influence in Boston and NY, especially Boston. But now that I think of it, maybe it isn’t as strong as I remember for NY…
C
cheezey
Guest
“Where is the desire among lay Catholics for REVIVAL?”
If the Catholic Church would, I don’t know, make itself known in a new way, would there be an influx of renewed interest? I am oversimplifying, no doubt. But that is a curious thought.
If the Catholic Church would, I don’t know, make itself known in a new way, would there be an influx of renewed interest? I am oversimplifying, no doubt. But that is a curious thought.
I
Incomplete
Guest
Jesus did not change truth just to “win” anybody. Truth is truth. Politics is tied in with Gospel preaching, because to teach truth is to preach the Gospel.
We welcome everybody. To be gay is not an issue; to act on it is the issue. But yes, we do welcome sinners. Thank goodness we do; I wouldn’t be welcome (nor would my priest, or Bishop, or even our Pope!) if we didn’t. If the issue was murder (which it is, with abortion), or pedophilia, or basically any sin that you agreed is a sin, would you be suggesting Church teachings change? Would you be asking us not to teach against them? Should we be silent, not help people see they are wrong, just to fill seats?
We can’t change the truth, so we can’t change our teachings just to “win” people. And win them to what? Is it right to encourage people to sin in order to get them into a church? If not to live a holy life, what would be the purpose in that? Religion is not about what people want; it’s about preaching the Gospel and teaching us to grow closer to God.
The reason to be Catholic is for fullness of truth. How can a God of truth expect us to follow truth if we don’t know what truth is? It can’t just be to love God; scripture says if we love Him, we keep His commands. Jesus said to follow Him. If it was as simple as just loving God, we wouldn’t need the rest of scripture.
So how do you find truth? It can’t be just through individual guidance by the Holy Spirit; if that was how to find it, any two people who pray and love God would be in agreement. But we can’t even seem to agree on issues vital to salvation.
To me it makes sense that there is a deposit of truth somewhere. It makes sense to me that it is in either the Catholic or Orthodox churches, because they are the ones who have been around since the time of Christ. Obviously for me, it makes the most sense that it is in the Catholic church.
But that’s what you really need to figure out. If God is a God of truth, if Jesus meant what He said when He talked about sending the Advocate to lead us to truth, then truth is important. So…how do you find it?
T
The_Scott
Guest
Because being progressive and “hip” is working for the liberal Protestants.
Just ask the crumbling Episcopalian Church.- Status