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cheezey
Guest
What link is needed for the claims?
Intrigued by Catholicism, but just can't convert for many reasons
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St_Francis
Guest
Epan has raised a very valid question, one to which he may get much betters if he posted as a separate thread with its own title which would bring people who know about the situation into the discussion.; and if he included links to information about the situation so that others could understand the situation.
It is helpful to provide links to provide a fuller explantion for one’s comments, to provide evidence for one’s assertions, or to inform others more fully.
I am not in Ireland and so have not kept up with this issue, altho I heard bits and pieces.
I do think that the general issue of Catholics, esp those in the hierarchy, doing bad things, is germane to the next thing we might be discussing with CaliLobo; as I pointed out in my last response to him, I think he may have a misunderstanding of beloef and sin.
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cheezey
Guest
Actually, I meant that issues of this nature are abundant in the news and news seems to be everywhere.
Yes, links are definitley helpful. Yes, seperate thread may be better
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Kal2012
Guest
Why follow Protestantism when they are hypocritical too?
People are hypocritical. That’s part of being human. If they say that they aren’t, then they are liars.
People are hypocritical. That’s part of being human. If they say that they aren’t, then they are liars.
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Kal2012
Guest
We can’t pretend that the values of the Roman Empire at the birth of Jesus are the same values that we have in 2013AD in America. Supplanting our values onto past times isn’t helpful.
Part of being a progressive society is realizing that we did have screwed up values in the past and we learned from that and have different values. (i.e. Slavery is wrong, so we don’t enslave people anymore). That doesn’t mean forgetting the past, but it means that we understand that context of the times that these people lived in.
In terms of the Popes and the Church, it means picking up history books and reading their stories and finding out their motives for the choices they made. Some of them probably shouldn’t have been entrusted w/the job, but we can’t go back in time and fix those mistakes. It’s just never going to happen…
If you are interested in the Holocaust, you should pick up the books written by Sir Martin Gilbert. He is just an amazing historian and his books stay with you.
The one I’d recommend is linked below. It talks about ordinary people who helped the Jews during the Holocaust. It was interesting because he broke the chapters up into regions and wrote about the specific conditions in those countries, so you could see how different cultures responded to the German demands of extermination. Sometimes it’s really a sad read because there were cultures that were very happy to kill Jews. However, that’s just a reality of the time that none of us can change.
amazon.com/The-Righteous-Unsung-Heroes-Holocaust/dp/0805062610/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_8
Part of being a progressive society is realizing that we did have screwed up values in the past and we learned from that and have different values. (i.e. Slavery is wrong, so we don’t enslave people anymore). That doesn’t mean forgetting the past, but it means that we understand that context of the times that these people lived in.
In terms of the Popes and the Church, it means picking up history books and reading their stories and finding out their motives for the choices they made. Some of them probably shouldn’t have been entrusted w/the job, but we can’t go back in time and fix those mistakes. It’s just never going to happen…
If you are interested in the Holocaust, you should pick up the books written by Sir Martin Gilbert. He is just an amazing historian and his books stay with you.
The one I’d recommend is linked below. It talks about ordinary people who helped the Jews during the Holocaust. It was interesting because he broke the chapters up into regions and wrote about the specific conditions in those countries, so you could see how different cultures responded to the German demands of extermination. Sometimes it’s really a sad read because there were cultures that were very happy to kill Jews. However, that’s just a reality of the time that none of us can change.
amazon.com/The-Righteous-Unsung-Heroes-Holocaust/dp/0805062610/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_8
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Kal2012
Guest
Calilobo: I understand questioning and I understand the perspective that you are coming from because I’ve been there.
I have a friend who was abused through the church and I totally understand why he doesn’t go to mass anymore. Totally understandable. I asked him if he’d come and support me during my Confirmation this Easter, but I’m not too surprised that I haven’t heard back from him. I just didn’t want him to be left out because his friendship has been part of my spiritual journey and I told him that in my note. It is what it is.
In every organization made by man, there are going to be good and bad people in them. That’s the price of living in a fallen world.
I appreciate the desire of wanting the church to change for you because I think we’ve all been there at one point or another.
However, I wonder if we’d lose more Catholics if we went in ‘whole hog’ forward w/gay marriage and abortion and contraception than we’d gain.
After all, the church is growing in Latin America and Africa with the values that we currently have. It’s just not doing well in the West because the culture is different and people think that what we call freedom is really freedom.
As a woman, let me tell you, equality - the way our culture has defined it - is over-rated!
So, having the freedom to drink like a lush (and not be called out on it) and “hook-up” and have abortions somehow makes a woman equal to a man? I’m college-educated, but that’s just disgusting. The right to join a female gang and beat people up and pee in the snow like a man isn’t what we should be defining as equality. I’m really embarrassed for the sister-hood for supporting and standing by this stuff as if it’s just ‘girls just being girls’. No, it’s people abdicating their responsibility to act like decent human beings.
And girls can be just as slutty as the guys used to be…yoo hoo! (ugh!) Sorry, but that’s slavery, not freedom. That hurts women a lot more than it helps and it’s really sad that so many people believe the lies that our culture tells us.
Did you ever read Charles Murray’s ‘Coming Apart’ that I recommended?
amazon.com/Coming-Apart-State-America-1960-2010/dp/0307453421
I’ll take the church’s traditional culture any day over this **** that you want to call modernity and freedom and equality.
Good luck finding what you are looking for.
I have a friend who was abused through the church and I totally understand why he doesn’t go to mass anymore. Totally understandable. I asked him if he’d come and support me during my Confirmation this Easter, but I’m not too surprised that I haven’t heard back from him. I just didn’t want him to be left out because his friendship has been part of my spiritual journey and I told him that in my note. It is what it is.
In every organization made by man, there are going to be good and bad people in them. That’s the price of living in a fallen world.
I appreciate the desire of wanting the church to change for you because I think we’ve all been there at one point or another.
However, I wonder if we’d lose more Catholics if we went in ‘whole hog’ forward w/gay marriage and abortion and contraception than we’d gain.
After all, the church is growing in Latin America and Africa with the values that we currently have. It’s just not doing well in the West because the culture is different and people think that what we call freedom is really freedom.
As a woman, let me tell you, equality - the way our culture has defined it - is over-rated!
So, having the freedom to drink like a lush (and not be called out on it) and “hook-up” and have abortions somehow makes a woman equal to a man? I’m college-educated, but that’s just disgusting. The right to join a female gang and beat people up and pee in the snow like a man isn’t what we should be defining as equality. I’m really embarrassed for the sister-hood for supporting and standing by this stuff as if it’s just ‘girls just being girls’. No, it’s people abdicating their responsibility to act like decent human beings.
And girls can be just as slutty as the guys used to be…yoo hoo! (ugh!) Sorry, but that’s slavery, not freedom. That hurts women a lot more than it helps and it’s really sad that so many people believe the lies that our culture tells us.
Did you ever read Charles Murray’s ‘Coming Apart’ that I recommended?
amazon.com/Coming-Apart-State-America-1960-2010/dp/0307453421
I’ll take the church’s traditional culture any day over this **** that you want to call modernity and freedom and equality.
Good luck finding what you are looking for.
J
jmcrae
Guest
We don’t follow the Pope because of any merit of his own, but rather because Jesus placed him in command. He is protected from teaching error, but he is not automatically perfect. Even so, there are probay very good reasons for his actions in this case - I don’t know anything about the case.
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MarkInOregon
Guest
The Church preaches chasity–how does that exacerbate the HIV problem? I think people who will not follow church teaching exacerbate the problem and that is not the fault of the Church. I think people who preach that people cannot have self-control when it comes to sex exacerbate the problem. Again that is not the fault of the Church and its teaching.
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First please check the definition of hypocrite. If I believe and teach something–even if I fail to live up to that belief–I am not a hypocrite. I am simply a sinful man falling short of what I beleive.
If I profess to believe something and teach it but I do not really believe it -then I am a hypocrite.
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Because this is what Jesus set up to safe guard his teachings from change. He didn’t set it up to protect people, including his leaders from falling into sin, but to make sure that those trying to repent, follow Christ, and do the will of his Father–would know what the will of his Father was. We beleive it is important to know what it means to follow Christ and do the will of his Father.
The problem is you can’t know for sure when on is doing the will of the Father with your “system”. It is wrong to tell some one they are not a true believer simply because you don’t believe they are following Jesus teachings. Do you know what they truly believe in their heart? Are they attempting to follow Jesus teaching and simply falling short? Do they need more assistance from the Church in living those teachings? Has your particular Church clearly stated the required teachings that count as “following” Jesus teaching? Does the individual believe that what you’re calling him out for are “essential” teachings?
If you will not say one is in scandal for disagreeing with you how can you call him out for not following Jesus teachings and say he is not a true believer–maybe he just disagrees with you regarding what Jesus taught?
Wouldn’t our evangelization efforts be more effective if we were all united? When Christians are not unified it undermines our strength and evangelization efforts. Christ specifically prayed that we all be one and he left us the mechanism to be unified–unfortunatey man would rather be his own authority–that is the story of the fall and really all OT history and it would appear our history.
Peace,
Mark
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MarkInOregon
Guest
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cheezey
Guest
And no one knows everything. If they say they do, they are liars too.
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jmcrae
Guest
Of what are we being accused, and who is our accuser?
The accused has the right to know of what he is being accused, and the names of his accusers, and he also has the right to access all of the evidence against him, so as to mount a reasonable defense against false accusations if that is the case, or to explain why he did whatever it is he is being accused of, if in fact he did it.
Vague claims of the Vatican “doing acts” somewhere in Ireland is insufficient evidence that anything at all has happened, let alone anything desperately evil.
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jmcrae
Guest
Protestantism doesn’t have a Magesterium, since this is an office that was established by Christ and the Apostles that resides in the Catholic Church alone - the Protestants separated themselves from the Magesterium, and even smashed and destroyed images of the Apostles to signify that they were breaking away from both the Magesterium and the Holy Tradition of the Apostles.
Islam wasn’t established by Christ. The Catholic Church was. Should we not be following Christ’s religion, regardless of whether it is new or old?
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Miriam1947
Guest
I came into the Church after the scandals. Seeing the faces of Catholics on TV after it all broke was heartbreaking.
But, it had nothing to do with the Truth of the Church. Was it awful? You bet.
Many of those scandals were years ago and the Church sent those priests to psychologists who told them they were cured. Shows you what modern medicine knew at the time.
What has happened in Ireland is also sinful and has caused many to leave the Church. The ones who have caused it will have their own judgement and woe to them.
That still does not negate the Truth.
Every day I thank God that He made me Catholic.
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cheezey
Guest
I agree that it does not negate the truth.
Yes, woe to those who caused.
In addition, there are those who would say, woe to those who enable.
Maybe some of us need a refresher course on what makes the Pope infallible?
It is confusing to hear of his infallibility, granted, perhaps without understanding it all, to know this:
2389 Connected to incest is any sexual abuse perpetrated by adults on children or adolescents entrusted to their care. the offense is compounded by the scandalous harm done to the physical and moral integrity of the young, who who will remain scarred by it all their lives; an the violationof resposibility for their upbringing.
…and to know that the problem continues.
How is this reconciled?
Just trying to understand.
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cheezey
Guest
What do you mean “protected from error”? You stated that he is not automatically perfect. That said, if he were to make an error, how then would it be handled? I could understand the confusion of an intrigued seeker. Perhaps a refresher course on what makes the Pope infallible is in order?
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joe370
Guest
As a former Protestant, it made sense to me upon reading Matthew 16. I just had to get beyond my personal biases and preconceived notions e.g. protestation traditions. I should preface the following by saying that all of the Apostles form the foundation of Jesus’ church, as per scripture, but only Simon, renamed Kepha, received the keys of Jesus’ church. I seems rather simple: Catholics believe that Peter was the first vicar of Christ due to the metaphorical keys; a similar case can be seen in Isiah 22. Peter, prior to his demise would obviously pass on said keys i.e. the Petrine office to a successor. Scripture reminds us that Jesus’ church (the Mystical Body of Christ of which Jesus is the Head and Savior) was built on Simon, renamed Kepha, and that even our worst enemy will never vanquish Jesus’ church built on Peter. Logically, Jesus’ church continued to be built on Rock long after Peter passed away, which means that his successors, until the end of time, will continue to pass on those keys, which ultimately symbolize Jesus’ authority i.e. His way of preserving truth. Just as Peter was a fallible sinner, so too are all of his successors. I like to think of the Petrine office as a kind of sacrament, in the sense that the divine office is an outward sign of Jesus’ inward grace, which is why the adversarial winds will continue to blow and beat against Jesus’ House in an attempt to steal the sheep from the Shepherd, Jesus, and His earthly Vicar, but it will never fall because it has its foundation firmly placed on Divine Rock, Jesus, and His earthly Rock, Peter, and this will continue until the end of time.
Also, every vicar (vicegerent of Christ) was, and continues to be a fallen creature, but that has nothing to do with the preservation of doctrinal truth. For example, a priest (the priestly office of Christ) in a state of mortal sin cannot prevent the Eucharistic miracle (graces flowing from God to His flock) from taking place. I believe that Jesus chose to channel graces in a sacramental way for the simple fact that there would be no other way. After all, every human is a fallible sinner. The sacramental system get’s around the major problem.
“I will depose you from your office…and you will be ousted from your position.In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the people of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.23 I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will become a seat.
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epan
Guest
Canon Law requires the Church to cooperate with legal authorities in child molestation cases. This is no mystery,and easily looked up.
There are many sources documenting the Irish situation. Here is one. dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1184828/Revealed-decades-ritual-child-abuse-Catholic-schools-orphanages-damned-report.html.
The issue former, is that the coverup still persists. How can this be?
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St_Francis
Guest
Thanks for the link. I hope you will make a separate thread for this so you can get good answers to this.
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jmcrae
Guest
Do you believe that God protected the nine writers of the New Testament from penning errors in doctrine and moral teaching?
If God could protect nine very fallible men (including Peter, who disowned Christ in His most awful moment of need as He was being led away to be crucified, and Paul, who approved of the killing of Stephen, and sought to destroy the Church) despite their sins and despite their human failings, across a period between 57 AD and 95 AD, then is it possible for God to protect the Pope from teaching any error in doctrine and moral teaching during the few short years that he is in that office during his lifetime? (Many of whom never committed any serious sin in their whole lives; some of whom were scoundrels from the beginning, but none of whom have ever proclaimed sin to be a virtue).
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joe370
Guest
No doubt that there have been horrific abuses and cover-ups at times in Jesus’ church, (evil will probably persist in some form within Jesus’ church; after all, Satan wants to destroy Jesus’ Mystical Body, the Church, of which Jesus is the Head and Savior) and I cannot even imagine what awaits those evil perpetrators masquerading as ministers of Christ, upon their demise, for all eternity, something they will deserve for their inhumane, vicious and satanic behavior; act like Satan, you will end up with Satan forever; free will cuts both ways. That being said, is it enough to keep us away from Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist, within the church founded by God?
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