Intrigued by Catholicism, but just can't convert for many reasons

[tqualey]

Hi, Sw85,

Excellent post!

I think very little time is spent on just how this wave of apostasy is rising - and very few care enough to stop it! You’ve taken a stand - and that is to stand with the Church founded by Christ on Peter - and not one founded by some of the guys who were in open rebelion with Christ’s Church.

God bless

Much of the OP’s complaints boil down to “why can’t the Church be more like mainline Protestantism?”

This is why. The vast majority of mainline Protestantism has lapsed into apostasy just as the OP would like the Church to do, and is paying the price for it with increasingly irreverent, irrelevant, and ridiculous liturgy and skyrocketing rates of atheism.

The failure of mainline Protestantism is the exact reason the Church must never, ever cave on its moral teachings.

 

[empantarhei]

The failure of mainline Protestantism is the exact reason the Church must never, ever cave on its moral teachings.

Agreed. But what of the Church’s shortcomings regarding some of those moral teachings?

 

[sw85]

Agreed. But what of the Church’s shortcomings regarding some of those moral teachings?

Those aren’t the shortcomings of the Church, if you’re talking about the sort of thing I think you’re talking about.

Individual priests aren’t the Church. Nor are individual bishops the Church. Both individual priests and individual bishops are men, as fallen as the rest of us. We were never guaranteed our shepherds would be particularly good or holy. We were only guaranteed they wouldn’t be wrong, under certain circumstances, about certain things.

 

[joe370]

joe370;10180405:

It sounds like you want it all or nothing. That is not what Catholicism is about, I am afraid.1.The one thing protestants fail to do is pick up their cross and follow Christ, as per the bible, IMHO.

2. Quite a few of your questions are rather vague. However, I do not believe it is about which church has the edge, do you - really? it’s about finding the church founded by God, IMHO.

1. Say what??!! Explain, please. Thanks
2. Amen!!

1. I have been told by many (not everyone) protestants, even in my family, that salvation requires no works on our part i.e. works have no part in our salvation because Jesus finished the work of salvation on the cross.

 

[joe370]

Much of the OP’s complaints boil down to “why can’t the Church be more like mainline Protestantism?”

This is why. The vast majority of mainline Protestantism has lapsed into apostasy just as the OP would like the Church to do, and is paying the price for it with increasingly irreverent, irrelevant, and ridiculous liturgy and skyrocketing rates of atheism.

The failure of mainline Protestantism is the exact reason the Church must never, ever cave on its moral teachings.

 

[empantarhei]

Those aren’t the shortcomings of the Church, if you’re talking about the sort of thing I think you’re talking about.

Individual priests aren’t the Church. Nor are individual bishops the Church. Both individual priests and individual bishops are men, as fallen as the rest of us. We were never guaranteed our shepherds would be particularly good or holy. We were only guaranteed they wouldn’t be wrong, under certain circumstances, about certain things.

Yes, we are on the same page, and I agree with you. Individual priests, etc… But instead of skyrocketing atheism, the Church has too many people leaving, also, and not just for the implied reason mentioned. (And actually, I was referring to the Pontiff’s less than great handling of the situation.) That too, for many, is increasingly irreverent and intolerable, and hence, many ‘lapse.’ He IS the moral teaching of the Church. How is that to be reconciled? And again, I understand this issue to be but one of a few reasons why many lapse…

 

[empantarhei]

empantarhei;10188161:

1. I have been told by many (not everyone) protestants, even in my family, that salvation requires no works

on our part i.e. works have no part in our salvation because Jesus finished the work of salvation on the cross.

For some within Protestantism, Salvation DOES take works, yet in our expected human failings and weaknesses to do those works, yes, Jesus did finish the work of salvation on the cross. Some denominations say yea to works, others, nay. Never did understand that division within the division. Disparity boggles the mind…DISCLAIMER: I am no expert, but I ain’t too shabby either, so I have been told…

 

[joe370]

joe370;10188364:

For some within Protestantism, Salvation DOES take works, yet in our expected human failings and weaknesses to do those works, yes, Jesus did finish the work of salvation on the cross. Some denominations say yea to works, others, nay. Never did understand that division within the division. Disparity boggles the mind…DISCLAIMER: I am no expert, but I ain’t too shabby either, so I have been told…

I agree.

Not the part about you, not being an expert…

 

[guanophore]

1) I have been told by many (not everyone) protestants, even in my family, that salvation requires no works on our part i.e. works have no part in our salvation because Jesus finished the work of salvation on the cross.

This is a very common modern heresy based upon a misunderstanding of the nature of salvation.

The Reformers found it expedient to separate the concepts of justification and sanctification. This was an effective tool to wrench authority away from the CC, whose duty it is to shepherd the faithful in these areas. Once a person can be convinced that all that is necessary is Jesus’ finished work on the cross, it no longer becomes necessary to obey the Teachings of the Church.

 

[CaliLobo]

Sorry for not keeping my word and replying instead.

guanophore:

You have probably been asked for this before, but I will do so again. Please provide evidence of both these assertions. [You have claimed the CC was founded in 300 AD.] You have claimed the Catechism "distorts’ the bible. Please show us .

Sorry I haven’t the time to review the content of each link in detail, but here are some examples, and there are more if you search for them. And if you really want detail, go to a Protestant bookstore:

Re: when CC founded
biblebelievers.com/jmelton/Catholic.html

Re: Catechism distorts Bible
jesus-is-lord.com/catectoc.htm

Kal2012:

It’s so easy to be a Protestant (at least in my opinion) because if you don’t like what the church teaches, then you leave and find a new church more to your liking.

So, while you might see more fruit in some of these churches, I have to wonder how many people will still be there in 5-10-15 years. Are they able to sustain their congregation for the long haul? I’ve seen members split off and form their own church because they don’t like what the original church was doing.

Yes that’s a valid criticism. But what’s so wrong about people wanting to seek the truth and practice it properly, when there are valid theological counterarguments like the links I posted above? Why waste time in a whack church, when you can vote with your feet?

tqualey:

Just take a look at your inquiry into abortion - every issue brought up is simply wrapped in emotionalism rather then an honest effort to address the facts. Your ‘compassion for women’ is emotionalism run amuck. While the inconvience of a pregnant woman to continue the pregnancy is viewed as worth the risk to her life (just look at the recent ultiple deaths and serious damage to these women undergoing the abortion) should allow the butchery of an innocent life…

The CC can preach all it wants that children are a blessing, but it is a statistical fact that children are an economic burden to women, especially in the Westernized world. As countries develop, living costs rise, women need careers, and children become more economically burdensome, especially to the women that have to suffer the consequences. That is why calling for bans on abortion is unrealistic. That is why most women want some degree of abortion rights, because they are the victims. This includes Christian women. Polls show that when women are taken away from the presence of men, they support abortion overwhelmingly.

As far as gay rights are concerned, it is a scientific fact that about 2 to 10% of humans are gay, and homosexual behavior is found in dozens of species. Gays are everywhere in our history and our current society. Gays are in every industry. Heck, my bosses and secretary are gay. If you are Catholic, you can oppose it personally. But the Vatican isn’t afraid of scientific progress, and scientifically, homosexuality is normal.

sw85:

Much of the OP’s complaints boil down to “why can’t the Church be more like mainline Protestantism?”

This is why. The vast majority of mainline Protestantism has lapsed into apostasy just as the OP would like the Church to do, and is paying the price for it with increasingly irreverent, irrelevant, and ridiculous liturgy and skyrocketing rates of atheism.

The failure of mainline Protestantism is the exact reason the Church must never, ever cave on its moral teachings.

That article discusses the alleged “running dry” of mainline Protestantism. ** But Protestant churches have grown and changed since their alleged “running dry” around 1975.** Evangelical, nondenominational megachurches, like the one I attend, are growing by leaps and bounds. Protestants are agreeing that denominational division is hurtful, hence the growth of the nondenominational church. Denominations are putting down their “petty theological squabbles” in favor of more unity. And by the way, they are still influenced by Calvin, Luther, and their “mainline Protestant” historical roots.

 

[joe370]

This is a very common modern heresy based upon a misunderstanding of the nature of salvation.

The Reformers found it expedient to separate the concepts of justification and sanctification. This was an effective tool to wrench authority away from the CC, whose duty it is to shepherd the faithful in these areas. Once a person can be convinced that all that is necessary is Jesus’ finished work on the cross, it no longer becomes necessary to obey the Teachings of the Church.

Pretty clever on their part…

 

[CaliLobo]

tqualey:

http://www.ihmsjc.org/roman_catholic_human_rights.htm (An interesting graphic)

This graph under sexual rights “right to choose a state of life” and “right to found a family or live singly”, and the quote “The participation of marginalized groups takes priority over the preservation of a political order which excludes them,” appears to not oppose extending marriage rights to gays.

 

[James1990]

I would like to just add in my point. I dont know if this was said and done before but do protestants belief only in the bible? For me this protestant vs catholic debate has been in my head for sometime. Recently, I had this thought come into my head. Would a loving father just write a book for their son and leave it to their own interpretation?

To me catholicism is so much more, I believe God has not only written a book through the apostles but also he has given us a living breathing relationship with us and that is the Sacred Traditions, and the Catholic Church!

 

[joe370]

I would like to just add in my point. I dont know if this was said and done before but do protestants belief only in the bible? For me this protestant vs catholic debate has been in my head for sometime. Recently, I had this thought come into my head. Would a loving father just write a book for their son and leave it to their own interpretation?

To me catholicism is so much more, I believe God has not only written a book through the apostles but also he has given us a living breathing relationship with us and that is the Sacred Traditions, and the Catholic Church!

As a former protestant I came to believe the exact same thing.

 

[Kal2012]

Yes that’s a valid criticism. But what’s so wrong about people wanting to seek the truth and practice it properly, when there are valid theological counterarguments like the links I posted above? Why waste time in a whack church, when you can vote with your feet?

I don’t see anything wrong with seeking the truth. As a seeker myself, I’ve struggled with this. I just find that the things that you dislike about Catholicism are the things that I like.

Have you ever been to a Jewish temple? Catholicism adopted a lot of the characteristics of a Jewish worship service. If you want to get to the most traditional kind of service w/o going Jewish, then you go Catholic. There really isn’t another option.

I have never found the same kind of tradition/respect for the worship process in the protestant world. Most protestants pride themselves in doing worship their way, not the Catholic way.

The CC can preach all it wants that children are a blessing, but it is a statistical fact that children are an economic burden to women, especially in the Westernized world. Polls show that when women are taken away from the presence of men, they support abortion overwhelmingly.

Then how do you explain polls that show that young people are overwhelmingly pro-life?

Furthermore, the reason why children are an economic burden is because Western society has rejected the fundamentals of family - a mom and a dad. So, instead of two people raising kids in one household, two individuals (if the kid knows who the other parent is) have two separate households, dividing resources and making each household poorer than it would be if they weren’t separated.

Please, let’s not argue about moms working or not. Moms get that we all do our best in the circumstances we are given. Making the assumption that one is better than the other isn’t the way to look at the situation.

The reality is that women in our society have been taught (outside the church) that it is okay to structure families w/o having a dad in the picture. So, of course, there’s going to be chaos and mixed messages. What else would you expect? Of course, women have to work if there isn’t a partner to help economically. Of course, in an era of choice, women are going to choose to work or stay home and neither is inherently bad or wrong.

It’s just that there are consequences to those choices that people need to be fully informed about. No, the SAHM probably won’t get to go on vacations every year. No, the working mom probably won’t be able to volunteer at their kids school during the day.

It’s about what is needed in the family and what the priorities are.

 

[Kal2012]

That article discusses the alleged “running dry” of mainline Protestantism. ** But Protestant churches have grown and changed since their alleged “running dry” around 1975.** Evangelical, nondenominational megachurches, like the one I attend, are growing by leaps and bounds. Protestants are agreeing that denominational division is hurtful, hence the growth of the nondenominational church. Denominations are putting down their “petty theological squabbles” in favor of more unity. And by the way, they are still influenced by Calvin, Luther, and their “mainline Protestant” historical roots.

If you are going to be unified under bad theology, then what do you get out of being unified?

Denominational division is important because there are specific reasons why these churches were created to different from other Protestant churches and the Catholic church. I’m not sure the people who created these churches would be thrilled w/the fact that their theology is being minimized in order to foster a sense of unity.

I just don’t get how that respects the memories of the people who strove to create these churches - regardless of whether I agree or don’t.

This just reaffirms why I’m interested in being Catholic. Clarity. I know what the church believes and they aren’t lowering their standards to get more people through the doors.

I find the unity in the CC much more rewarding than anything in I’ve seen in protestantism.

Still, this is an interesting conversation.

 

[sw85]

Yes, we are on the same page, and I agree with you. Individual priests, etc… But instead of skyrocketing atheism, the Church has too many people leaving, also, and not just for the implied reason mentioned. (And actually, I was referring to the Pontiff’s less than great handling of the situation.) That too, for many, is increasingly irreverent and intolerable, and hence, many ‘lapse.’ He IS the moral teaching of the Church. How is that to be reconciled? And again, I understand this issue to be but one of a few reasons why many lapse…

People are leaving the Church in large part because they disagree with its teachings, i.e., because they would rather be good liberal Americanists rather than good Catholics, not because the Church has repudiated them. This is to be expected. There has always been an outflow in every age.

That article discusses the alleged “running dry” of mainline Protestantism. ** But Protestant churches have grown and changed since their alleged “running dry” around 1975.**

That growth, as you go on to acknowledge, has been entirely among the non-mainline Protestants, i.e., the ones with greater doctrinal fidelity, that aren’t ruled by lesbian bureaucrats.

In other words, they’re succeeding, too, because they are doing the exact opposite of what you’re suggesting.

 

[CATO_the_Elder]

Hello… I’m a Protestant from New Mexico.

OK… May I ask what type of protestant you are? Asking because there are many divisions amongst protestants & it would be helpful to know your frame of reference…also have you always been Protestant?

Thanks

 

[Kal2012]

I thought people here would find this article interesting given that one of Cali’s arguments is that protestantism is showing more fruit/growing.

Important pull-outs from the article:

"The Latin Mass Society of England and Wales, started in 1965, now has over 5,000 members. The weekly number of Latin masses is up from 26 in 2007 to 157 now. In America it is up from 60 in 1991 to 420. At Brompton Oratory, a hotspot of London traditionalism, 440 flock to the main Sunday Latin mass. That is twice the figure for the main English one. Women sport mantillas (lace headscarves). Men wear tweeds.

But it is not a fogeys’ hangout: the congregation is young and international. Like evangelical Christianity, traditional Catholicism is attracting people who were not even born when the Second Vatican Council tried to rejuvenate the church. Traditionalist groups have members in 34 countries, including Hong Kong, South Africa and Belarus. Juventutem, a movement for young Catholics who like the old ways, boasts scores of activists in a dozen countries. Traditionalists use blogs, websites and social media to spread the word—and to highlight recalcitrant liberal dioceses and church administrators, who have long seen the Latinists as a self-indulgent, anachronistic and affected minority. In Colombia 500 people wanting a traditional mass had to use a community hall (they later found a church)."

For the full article:
economist.com/news/international/21568357-its-trendy-be-traditionalist-catholic-church-traditionalist-avant-garde?fsrc=scn%2Ftw_ec%2Fa_traditionalist_avant_garde

Later -
Jo

 

[empantarhei]

People are leaving the Church in large part because they disagree with its teachings, i.e., because they would rather be good liberal Americanists rather than good Catholics, not because the Church has repudiated them. This is to be expected. There has always been an outflow in every age.

But again, (and I am referring to the aforementioned specific), how does one remain a good Catholic on this issue when the Pontiff is not handling the situation well? I am not referring to those who would rather be “good liberal Americanists.” I am referring to “good Catholics” who want and need to remain as such, but cannot reconcile this rather serious problem, the helm at which is the Pontiff. He IS the moral teaching of the Church, and many good Catholics disagree with his example of not doing enough to at least address the problem to its fullest. How does a good Catholic reconcile this within the Faith?