Intrigued by Catholicism, but just can't convert for many reasons

[CaliLobo]

Hey all! Still having troubles, but will reply after work today.

 

[St_Francis]

Hey all! Still having troubles, but will reply after work today.

Good to “see” you again, Calilobo

 

[CaliLobo]

Maybe the stubbornness of modern people on these issues is holding them back from hearing what the Church has to say?

If the claims of the Catholic Church are true ( I know you do not yet believe that, but just put yourselves in our shoes for a minute here), then Christ taught what the Church teaches. The Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error in the matters of faith *and morals. *The Church can no more start teaching that abortion and homosexual acts are wrong than a mathematician could teach that 3+3=4.

Is there room for change on the law of gravity?

That’s the thing. How do we even know that Christ taught this?

I used to live a sheltered youth. But now I’m at a point where gays are all around me, in society, at work, at social events, on TV, etc. Gay bosses, gay secretaries, gay celebrities, and so on. How can you be so sure that if Christ walked on this earth today, he would tell gays that they are not as worthy as straights are of the privileges and opportunities of life (which is what you are telling them by opposing gay legal rights)? Does this seem like something Christ would do? Is this Christ’s love? Christ never did a THING to oppose Rome politically when he was on this earth…

It just doesn’t seem Christlike, and if I ever get the chance to evangelize to my colleagues, there’s no way I could tell my gay colleagues that Christ taught them they aren’t as worthy of the privileges and opportunities of life. Especially when they honestly believe they were created that way…

It’s just not love.
St Francis:

You seem to be basing a lot of your argument on this–I saved my comments on it til now–but what are you talking about? How can we judge the truth a church teaches based on the ups and downs of what members do over the centuries?

I don’t know exactly what you mean by the “fruits produced,” but it does seem as if you are looking at certain specific criteria and seeing that the Protestants have better numbers. But in order to fully understand, we would really need to have a full discussion of what the fruits are, exactly, and whether they are fruits one should consider, etc.

I’m talking about the fruits of the spirit in Galatians 5. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.” I see Protestants exhibiting these traits more often than I do Catholics. I see Protestant churches more actively practicing these traits than Catholics. I don’t see the historical wrongs of the Vatican, including the stubbornness of the Vatican on social issues as Christlike, or as a fruit of the Spirit.

That’s great that the CC is the original, the one Jesus founded. But despite the alleged Real Presence, didn’t the CC lose its way with its historical wrongs (Crusades, indulgences, geocentric theory, Inquisition, Spanish conquest, disputable teachings on theology and Tradition, and now its stubbornness on civil rights)?

If a church stops reflecting Christ in its practice, doesn’t that logically mean that Christ might no longer be present in that church, despite the alleged Real Presence?

Spiritual fruit is the evidence of the presence of Christ. Not the Real Presence in the crackers…

Kal2012:

People can argue about anything/everything.

Yeah that’s true with respect to church history, and even with whether there is a God, or whether religion is a good thing. Shall we start from the beginning and ask, how are we sure there is a God? And how are we sure religion is a good thing; isn’t it dangerous to “dive in” to quote Steven Curtis Chapman, and throw away your “reason” for faith, to quote the atheists?

 

[Kal2012]

Ultimately, I have faith that there is a God. I tried to experience life w/o him and it didn’t work out too well.

It’s hard to explain a feeling and how it changes when you know that you are around an evil or a good spirit. I just know that it exists and I accept it. Obviously, everyone has to make that choice for themselves and that’s that.

I tend to think that (non-Catholic, as far as I know) Michael Newton has the best explanation for gay souls.

amazon.com/Destiny-Souls-Studies-Between-Lives/dp/1567184995

They are very brave souls because they know that they will be persecuted in this life because of who they are. Still, they choose to incarnate as gay people anyways to teach the rest of us how to love people who are different.

All men created equal was a radical idea for the 1700’s, let alone the time of Christ.

Comparisons like this are difficult because we can’t put our modern standards on the historical conditions found in other time periods. Most men and women, regardless if they were gay or not, were never going to have the rights and privileges of free Roman citizens. That’s why it was unique that St. Paul could demand rights of the Roman government when he was in court. Most people in the Roman empire were subjects of the empire, but not citizens. That was just their lot in life and there was no such thing as upward mobility. In societies like this, only a small caste of people were actually citizens and citizenship wasn’t easily obtained by outsiders - if that was even an option.

 

[CaliLobo]

Continued…

I have heard many say they are fed at Protestant services, they will change churches till they find a preacher or social activities or music that feeds them. Roman Catholic Mass is quite the opposite it’s purpose is to worship God. It’s what you put into it that is important. Every section has a particular purpose with words that provide us a way to express our worship. Like many things in life it is what you put into something defines what you get out of it. It’s said “it’s better to give than receive” you feel good when you give. The Mass is the same way when you pour your heart out to God in worship and love during these “rote words” believe me you get something out of it. These “rote words” are also usually from scripture.

David danced, and many psalms are songs. If you’re a Christian you’ve been set free from sin and you are to repent. Isn’t it natural to be loud and celebrate? That’s why Protestant services are lively and joyful. What’s so wrong about clapping, raising hands, dancing, and rock and hip hop??

Why is the liturgy so immutable? Tradition never saved anyone. Isn’t it unchanging because the CC says so? Someone posted that the Bible is a church based document. Are we then to just follow the Church, whatever the heck it says, just because Jesus started it?

Can’t that be dangerous? To quote my missionary friend, the CC offers a system of saints, traditions, and dogmatic rituals. But where is the personal relationship with Christ that the Protestant church offers (a major reason Catholics convert)? It’s almost as if the CC hinders direct access to God because of its confession and saints system.

I’m smart; why can’t I find for myself what God is revealing to me through my relationship with Him, and use the Bible to confirm I’m not crazy?? Why do I need the Catholic system?

And re: abortion, to clarify, when women are polled in secret, away from the presence of their partners, they overwhelmingly support abortion because they know they have to bear the brunt of raising the unwanted child. And the foster system is filled with problems. I just don’t see Christ telling women they have to suffer for this. Not only that, the Vaticam opposes condoms although most Catholics ignore this (example of lacking fruit)! Let’s not fool ourselves to think we can deny our sexual urges. Combined with the social benefits of abortion (reduced crime, reduced drain on natural and government resources), the Vatican position lacks modern wisdom.

 

[St_Francis]

That’s the thing. How do we even know that Christ taught this?

That’s a good question: how do *you *know that what *you *believe about Christ is true?

I know how it is that I know: I have faith in Christ and trust Him. I believe that He will keep His promises, and when He said that He would send the Holy Spirit to protect the Church from teaching error, I trust that He has, is, and will continue to do so.

I also believe that He is the fulfillment of the Law rather than establishing a new law.

I used to live a sheltered youth. But now I’m at a point where gays are all around me, in society, at work, at social events, on TV, etc. Gay bosses, gay secretaries, gay celebrities, and so on.

where do you live, San Francisco? (Rhetorial question) You do realize that only about 2% of the US population is homosexual?

How can you be so sure that if Christ walked on this earth today, he would tell gays that they are not as worthy as straights are of the privileges and opportunities of life (which is what you are telling them by opposing gay legal rights)?

Christ tells all who are unmarried that they are not to engage in sexual activity; there is no “picking on” homosexuals.

As to anything else, the Church teaches that having homosexual inclinations is not a reason for any form of discrimination. So I am not sure what you are talking about here.

Does this seem like something Christ would do? Is this Christ’s love? Christ never did a THING to oppose Rome politically when he was on this earth…

I don’t know what His interaction or lack thereof with Rome has to do with anything, but yes, I do believe that Christ would continue to teach that sexual activity is for *procreation, *not for pleasure. The pleasure is a gift from God to help two people for whom it is very important to stay together through think and thin (to raise children) to do so. Do you really think that God gave us the ability to work with Him in the creation of new human beings, and that Christ came and died on the cross to redeem hs from sin so that we could than go and do wahatever we like with this gift? How can you think about the suffering Christ went through and not feel compassion for Him? How can you not want to live *better *for Him?

It just doesn’t seem Christlike, and if I ever get the chance to evangelize to my colleagues, there’s no way I could tell my gay colleagues that Christ taught them they aren’t as worthy of the privileges and opportunities of life. Especially when they honestly believe they were created that way…

Maybe you think that we are like Fred Phelps and his family who run around acting as if they think homosexuals should be tarred and feathered or worse just for having those inclinations. But that is not the case.

The Church teaches that *all *sexual activity which is not open to life is prohibited by our Creator. This means that if a married dual-gender couple feel that they should not have children that they should gasp!!! *refrain from engaging in the act which produces children! * and if people are not married, they should also refrain from sexual activity. **Because seex is very important. **It is not another leisure activity for when you can’t get tickets to a concert or whatever.

So, those who suffer from homosexual inclinations are not being told anything different from any other unmarried person. There are many people in this world who will never marry, and not by their choice. What about them?

It’s just not love.

Overall it seems that you have a particular notion about Christ, and it seems this notion is that He is a lot like… well, you. And your friends. A nice guy who would surely never tell people that they can’t have what they want. A social libertarian who just wants everyone to have a good time.

So, on what evidence do you base this idea of Christ?

 

[eddie_too]

calilobo,

i find it interesting that you believe that Jesus wanted their to be thousands of people teaching different things about Him and what He did and taught. afterall, that is the fruit of protestantism, over 30,000 different churches all teaching something different.

i find this especially interesting in light of Jesus prayer that all be one as He and His Father are one.

 

[eddie_too]

calilobo

Jesus clearly taught that fornication (sexual activity between two unmarried people) is evil.

how can it be a loving act to tell people who fornicate that it will not impact their immortal soul and eternal destiny?

homosexual activity is definitely fornication since, according to Jesus, marriage is between one man and one woman.

 

[eddie_too]

calilobo,

how can it be ok to ignore and not oppose the murder of innocent people?

how can you find it Christ-like to advocate that such murders be permitted under the law?

afterall, abortion is the deliberately putting an end to an innocent life and that is the very definition of murder.

 

[eddie_too]

calilobo,

as for the existence of God, i suggest you list the reasons for believing there is a God and side by side list the reasons for believing there is not a God.

as an aside, think about this question, what is it that limits existence or reality (in this context i use the words existence and reality as synonyms)?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Thank you for your post. I will reserve the right to not answer your questions, because I believe that whatever answer I or anyone gives you will not have any effect on your positions. I believe that you want the fullness of Christ in his Church, but also still want to live of this world. You cannot have both!

If New Mexico voted to allow the marriage between a brother and sister to be legal, would you support that union? What if abortion became legal even after the child was born? Would you also support that? One could ask “what if” all day long but where does that really get us?

If you are worried about the style of music in a service then I question your motives for being there. It does not matter if we sing a hymn that is 400 years old or 4, the fact of the matter is that we are praising God.

I simply ask you to pray for the wisdom of God on such matters. Ask our Lord to open your mind and heart to him and not of the wordly things that try to drive us away from him. Bring your problems and concerns to him. A forum is wonderful for a sinners perspective, but has the ultimate and final opinion. May you seek him now!

With much love

 

[cyejbv]

Calilobo, good to have you back!

As you can see, Catholics agree on everything!
Also, each of us has the best advice for you, and please don’t mind while we squabble.
CAF is a great place to start with your questions, but since it is an open forum you might find yourself inundated. I’m happy to add to that, but I wondered if you have read any books or blogs that are ‘apologetic’ - that is, explanatory? Scott Hahn’s book was mentioned but MY favorite was by Patrick Madrid. "Surprised by Truth’ - the subtitle is ‘11 Converts give the Biblical and Historical Reasons for becoming Catholic’. You might find some of your concerns shared by people in the book?

There was mention of the Catechism, but as a convert myself, it didn’t do anything for me PRIOR to my conversion: if I didn’t accept the Catholic Church was ‘true’, I wasn’t going to accept the Catechism! Does that make sense? So I bagged it and headed towards apologetics.
I appreciate and read the Catechism now, but it doesn’t answer our ‘objections’ as seekers, as much as it explains the faith for Catholics.

So, these are rhetorical questions, and you don’t need to answer but, do you pray for humility and wisdom as you seek? I remember reading that John Henry Newman- a famous convert in the Church- said that the deeper into history one gets, the less possible it is to remain Protestant. So I took that challenge on… but I prayed too. I’m just sharing bits and pieces of what I experienced, and I hope it helps.

However, at some point it’s going to be you and God and I do hope you talk to Him in prayer.

Also and finally: someone posted that the Catholic Church isn’t ‘bible based’, and I suppose as most people would understand that term, it’s kind of true. BUT it’s more accurate to say we don’t adhere to the idea of **‘sola scriptura’ ** (bible alone) , not that we aren’t bible based. In fact, most people don’t know where we (civilization) got the Bible… That’s a fun question that will lead you into history, truth and I pray, love of the Catholic Church!
When you have time, there are a million lucid and fascinating articles on every subject you can think of at catholiceducation.org/ ! Note, ‘a million’ is just code for a lot, but I love that site and my enthusiasm got the best of me.
Finally, keep seeking. St Augustine said the truth is like an ocean while our minds are like little pools: if you understand everything perfectly, you’ll be the first.

God Bless You! I really mean that.

 

[St_Francis]

… I’m talking about the fruits of the spirit in Galatians 5. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.” I see Protestants exhibiting these traits more often than I do Catholics. I see Protestant churches more actively practicing these traits than Catholics.

How many Catholics do you know well compared to the number of Protestants you know?

I have already told you that I know Protestants who are very Christ-like. In fact, I know Protestants who are more Christ-like than some Catholics I know!

But what makes thise Protestants Christ-like, holy? Anything good they have in their religion is what they chose to keep from Catholicism. Do Protestants believe in the Trinity? That concept was hammered out and fought for by the Catholics centuries before Martin Luther.

The Bible is a perfect encapsulation of Protestantism: Luther accepted parts of the Bible, but got rid of other parts, 7 books from the Old Testament. He called the Epistle of James “straw”–and what do we find in James? A direct refutation of “faith alone”: James 2 [14] What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? [15] And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food: [16] And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? [17] So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. [18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. [19] Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I don’t see the historical wrongs of the Vatican, including the stubbornness of the Vatican on social issues as Christlike, or as a fruit of the Spirit.

And who are you to make these decisions? I am sure you are very happy when a clinic staffed by Catholic nuns opens up in a poor part of the city; do you not see that the exact same faith which prompted that prompts us to follow God in condemning license and sin?

That’s great that the CC is the original, the one Jesus founded. But despite the alleged Real Presence, didn’t the CC lose its way with its historical wrongs

Not at all.

Crusades, indulgences, geocentric theory, Inquisition,

Apparently you learn about the Catholic Church only through anti-Catholic sources. None of these is any sort of problem, except as described in anti-Catholic propaganda.

Spanish conquest,

Of Latin America? Look at the difference between what those who embraced the Faith did and what thise who rejected the Faith did. I would not judge Baptists by the actions of those who dance and smoke!

disputable teachings on theology and Tradition,

Because someone somewhere can be found to argue against anything, we can easily see that the fact that someone *can *dispute something is no reflection on the teaching itself. There are many more disputes over and much less evidence for Protestant teachings.

and now its stubbornness on civil rights)?

To sin is not a civil right. To destroy society is not a civil right. And I include in this not just SSM (which is what I assume you are referring to) but ccontraception, abortion, and no-fault or easy divorce.

If a church stops reflecting Christ in its practice, doesn’t that logically mean that Christ might no longer be present in that church, despite the alleged Real Presence?

First you would have to show that the Church has stopped reflecting Christ…

Spiritual fruit is the evidence of the presence of Christ.

Insofar as a person adheres to the teachings of the Church, what he shows can be considered fruits of the teachings of the Church.

The fruits are not evidence of the presence of the Real Pesence of Christ in the Eucharist, which refers to the actual physical transformation --transubstatiation–of the bread and wine into the actual physical Body and Blood of our Lord. Transubstantiation occurs apart from the moral state of the souls present.

Not the Real Presence in the crackers…

You presented yourself as a sincere person interested in learning more about Catholcism, but here you are being *extremely disrespectful, *which is not sincere. I imagine that if you are sincere that you will apologize; naturally we understand that you may not have realized
how insulting this is: to our beliefs if not true, and to Christ Himself if it is true.

Yeah that’s true with respect to church history, and even with whether there is a God, or whether religion is a good thing. Shall we start from the beginning and ask, how are we sure there is a God? And how are we sure religion is a good thing; isn’t it dangerous to “dive in” to quote Steven Curtis Chapman, and throw away your “reason” for faith, to quote the atheists?

The thing about Catholicism is that it is based on reason; we do not expect anyone to throw away their reason. Among other things, this is why we require evidence of a good understanding if the Faith before receiving adults into the Church, unlike certain Protestant denominations which receive anyone overcome by the emotional reaction to a charismatic speaker.

 

[cyejbv]

Thank you for your post. I will reserve the right to not answer your questions, because I believe that whatever answer I or anyone gives you will not have any effect on your positions. I believe that you want the fullness of Christ in his Church, but also still want to live of this world. You cannot have both!

Christ can certainly use us as ‘tools’ to affect people’s positions!
Bl Mother Theresa of Calcutta said we are like the power lines and Christ is like the electricity.

As to the last point about ‘not having both’: it’s the constant struggle of MOST of us: we want the fullness of Christ, but still want to live in this world.! That’s The Big Challenge, not something unique to Calilobo!

Laslty and importantly, Mother Theresa also said, and I’m going to bold it to get y’all’s attention: “Kindness has converted more people than zeal or eloquence” !

The explanation point is mine, because let us not lecture those who seek, let us respond with kindness! We can pick nits with each other if we’re just dying to argue!

Don’t we all agree that it’s for* the love of Christ *that we reach out to others who seek to come home anyway? Yes, we do and if we don’t we should.

Rant concluded. :twocents:

 

[aidanbradypop]

Christ can certainly use us as ‘tools’ to affect people’s positions!
Bl Mother Theresa of Calcutta said we are like the power lines and Christ is like the electricity.

As to the last point about ‘not having both’: it’s the constant struggle of MOST of us: we want the fullness of Christ, but still want to live in this world.! That’s The Big Challenge, not something unique to Calilobo!

Laslty and importantly, Mother Theresa also said, and I’m going to bold it to get y’all’s attention: “Kindness has converted more people than zeal or eloquence” !

The explanation point is mine, because let us not lecture those who seek, let us respond with kindness! We can pick nits with each other if we’re just dying to argue!

Don’t we all agree that it’s for* the love of Christ *that we reach out to others who seek to come home anyway? Yes, we do and if we don’t we should.

Rant concluded. :twocents:

Thank you for your reply! Of course we all try to have both. That is why I will always have to go to confession But our goal is go become closer to Christ in everything. Have you read all of her post in this thread? She does not have concerns but rather wants the church to bend to her theology of right and wrong. Why should the Church have to bend to the will of man? We bend our will to the Church and Christ. Agree? I will not answer her questions simply because she already has the answers made up in her mind. I can and will however pray for her daily and hope she strives for God’s will rather than her own. We are asked to love one another and I will do that by praying for her rather than answering questions that she obviously already has a formed opinion on.

 

[cyejbv]

The thing about Catholicism is that it is based on reason; we do not expect anyone to throw away their reason.

This is precisely true Calilobo, the entire post by St Francis is very good, and upon reading your posts, it does look like you’re seeking information mostly from anti-Catholic sources.

If you want the truth, don’t cheat yourself trying to find it.

 

[cyejbv]

She does not have concerns but rather wants the church to bend to her theology of right and wrong. .

I totally understand that; my point was that I, as a convert, can feel her pain. Or his pain, I don;t know here. I can relate to her/his arguments not because of specific opinion in them, but in that I used to not get it either.

I think it is a very difficult thing for non-converts to understand: I was in my 30’s when I converted, I live in Utah and my husband’s family is very large and very LDS. SO, conversion can stir up a lot of fear, antagonism, and even anger.
Anti Catholic sentiment is everywhere, I had it!

Fulton Sheen said (ish) that “There isn’t one person in the world who hates the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they think She is.”

That’s all

BTW Thanks for response --and welcome to CAF! I post rarely to never, but it’s good to see new members here!

 

[aidanbradypop]

I think it is a very difficult thing for non-converts to understand: I was in my 30’s when I converted, I live in Utah and my husband’s family is very large and very LDS. SO, conversion can stir up a lot of fear, antagonism, and even anger.
Anti Catholic sentiment is everywhere, I had it!

BTW Thanks for response --and welcome to CAF! I post rarely to never, but it’s good to see new members here!

Thank you for the welcome. I have been lurking for years but had to respond to another post on here so I decided to join!

I am also a convert. I was raised Baptist/Anglican in a small town in Tennessee. The south is very much anti-Catholic so when I converted at 12 yrs of age, I lost many friends for it. I figured is was better to not have a friend than to not have the truth. Our belief in the Church and Her teachings are a matter of faith. We have never laid eyes upon Christ, yet we have faith he walked the earth. Going from Baptist to Catholic is like drinking water and then tasting beer.

My wife had a hard time with certain issues, but she trusted God and Church. My tolerance is very low for people who want to RCC to become more “worldly.” If you haven’t already noticed. That is why I kept from answering and decided to pray for her and myself. lol

 

[cyejbv]

My tolerance is very low for people who want to RCC to become more “worldly.”

Me TOO. I’m the worst for that,which is one of the reasons I love St Francis’ responses here, and the gentle admonitions therein. Not sure if St Francis is a Fransican but JRedcation is one of my favorite posters on CAF, and he is; his posts are also deeply generous, wise and quite simply a joy to read. Anyway, I’m close to hijacking the thread so let me diverge back: Non-Catholics sort of don’t know any better, hence my pass-giving sort of thinking with Calilobo When you know better you do better, I guess the saying goes…It’s the Catholics who want to change the Church that rile me up. :slapfight:

Lastly, forgive me for assuming you’re a cradle Catholic! I love to hear that you converted, if I knew how to start a thread I would: “Are you a convert and what’s your story?” would be fun.
Last time I tried to do that, all the advice, sticky’s and links given to me helped nothing. Not that I’m suggesting or hinting that you start a thread… but if you *do *message me - I love conversion stories!

Calilobo: still hope you will consider much of what has been said here for you, and may Christ richly bless you.

 

[aidanbradypop]

• Why should the Church continue to hold such positions, then? Even when so many Catholics disagree with the Vatican? Even when social conservatism is dead now with the reelection of Obama, and gay marriage winning by popular vote in three US states? Isn’t the Church least effective when it meddles with politics the most? Doesn’t the fact that Jesus said “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword,” while also being called Prince of Peace, mean that Jesus never came for social and political peace, that he was never a political reformer?QUOTE]

I cannot stand it any longer. I have to respond to this question lol

The Church is in no way, shape or form trying to be a political enitiy or pushing a political agenda. It has everything to do with morallity and nothing to do with politics. Governments, Presidents, Empires and laws fall by the wasteside, but the Church is everlasting. Why should the Church bow to pressure of a evergrowing immoral society to fit the beliefs of a few immoral people. I do not care if every state and nation in the world made same-sex marriage legal, it still does not make it right and just. Do not take scripture out of context please. “We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). He is the Prince of Peace for uniting us to God. The “sword” is a metaphor for the coming division betweenn Jew and Christian, Brother and Brother…etc. The Gospel he brought to mankind is one of peace. “If a man steals your shirt, offer him your coat.” How is that anything but peace? The “sword” is what you are going through right now. You want to be Catholic but you also want to hold onto the world. Ok I am done. Sorry.