Intrigued by Catholicism, but just can't convert for many reasons

[cheezey]

Christ can certainly use us as ‘tools’ to affect people’s positions!
Bl Mother Theresa of Calcutta said we are like the power lines and Christ is like the electricity.

As to the last point about ‘not having both’: it’s the constant struggle of MOST of us: we want the fullness of Christ, but still want to live in this world.! That’s The Big Challenge, not something unique to Calilobo!

Laslty and importantly, Mother Theresa also said, and I’m going to bold it to get y’all’s attention: “Kindness has converted more people than zeal or eloquence” !

The explanation point is mine, because let us not lecture those who seek, let us respond with kindness! We can pick nits with each other if we’re just dying to argue!

Don’t we all agree that it’s for* the love of Christ *that we reach out to others who seek to come home anyway? Yes, we do and if we don’t we should.

Rant concluded. :twocents:

:thumbsup:

 

[Stephen168]

Also, as a Protestant you grow up learning that venerating Mary and the saints is idolatry, having the crucifix is idolatry, how the papacy is unbiblical, and how its teachings on contraception, the Real Presence, papal infallibility, mortal and venial sin, confession, purgatory, prayers for the dead, and lots of other things are UNBIBLICAL. Add to that the historical wrongs of the Catholic Church (which Benedict has gone on an apology tour for), and why would anyone be Catholic?
But, a few years ago I met a friend that intelligently argued back about how all of those Catholic teachings are Biblical. Even Sola Scriptura, which I took for granted (as a Protestant, it sounds so elegant it HAS to be true), was called in question.

Another common argument–the desire to maintain traditions, or teachings that supposedly originate from Jesus’ time.
After all, Protestantism only arose because the Catholic Church was dropping the ball and abusing these traditions.

… (Crusades, indulgences, geocentric theory, Inquisition, Spanish conquest, disputable teachings on theology and Tradition, and now its stubbornness on civil rights)?
If a church stops reflecting Christ in its practice, doesn’t that logically mean that Christ might no longer be present in that church, despite the alleged Real Presence?
Spiritual fruit is the evidence of the presence of Christ. ** Not the Real Presence in the crackers**…

amazing!

 

[Kal2012]

Tradition: I love the tradition. I love knowing that the passages read at my parish are being read by all Catholics that week. As a protestant, the ‘series’ of sermons varies week by week and church to church. There’s no connection to history or other Christians when you worship at a Protestant church. In the Catholic church, history is all around you. There’s something special about praying the same prayers as other neighbors and other Catholics throughout the world that is hard to explain. It connects us in a different way than singing the same worship song in one specific brand of protestantism. It’s apples/oranges different.

BTW: Catholic youth group is usually where you find the guitar players/dancing. Not Mass. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if they were at World Youth Day either.

As for abortion/gay rights, I still have to wonder what it is in your soul that makes you question church teaching on these issues. Usually there’s some underlying issue to the rhetoric that people don’t want to talk about or admit.

W/me, I didn’t want to see that my mother was a sinner or “bad” for having an abortion in the '60’s. At the time, she had to cross state lines to do it and I used to think that was “cruel and unusual punishment”. That’s one of the reasons why she became anorexic (I hope you read my early post about how my mom died). I’ve always wondered if that child would have been my sister or brother. I can’t remember a time when I haven’t. Most children just don’t want to see their parents a flawed people who make bad choices.

Given my chaotic family situations/experiences, I don’t think the church is wrong when it tells women and men to wait for sex. I don’t think that how modern people do relationships is correct and should be held up as a good standard for people to follow.

People like to think that their moral standards are just as good as the church’s standards, but that’s just BS. Our society is a mess, primarily, because of the way we do ‘family’ these days. Or, rather, how we don’t do family these days.

I value my uniqueness as an individual. However, I would love it if our modern society would be a little less modern and more traditional. I think anyone who has kids and is trying to raise them in this culture would agree with that. It’s really hard when society isn’t kid-friendly and focused on adult pleasure. That’s why I disagree a lot with modern society. It’s not about future generations, but the adults. And the adults just don’t have their stuff together (for the most part!).

Later -

 

[Hamlet123]

Hello… I’m a Protestant from New Mexico.

Sorry this is long and unfocused, but my mind is in such conflict about all areas of Catholicism.

For the past few years I’ve been more and more intrigued by the Catholic Church. I like the intellectual edge it has, and its claim to be the original that Jesus founded. But the more I look into it and ask around, the more I get confused. And because of this confusion, it just makes it impossible to pull the trigger and convert. Here’s some reasons why:

• The Vatican says we should vote against gay marriage and abortion rights. The Vatican says one cannot be pro-choice and Catholic. But I can always find another liberal parish that disagrees.
• Why should the Church continue to hold such positions, then? Even when so many Catholics disagree with the Vatican? Even when social conservatism is dead now with the reelection of Obama, and gay marriage winning by popular vote in three US states? Isn’t the Church least effective when it meddles with politics the most? Doesn’t the fact that Jesus said “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword,” while also being called Prince of Peace, mean that Jesus never came for social and political peace, that he was never a political reformer?
• Since so many Catholics disagree with the Vatican, doesn’t that make the Church less effective? Shouldn’t the Catholic Church just tolerate political dissent like the Protestant churches, and not advocate any political position in particular? Why are abortion, gay marriage, cloning, euthanasia, and (I forgot the other) such immutable issues for Catholics? Yes I’ve heard natural law and moral issues. But aren’t civil rights important?
• But then again, if the Catholic church were to liberalize politically or tolerate political dissent, what would it then offer that I can’t find in a Protestant church?? Protestant churches are okay with political diversity because they know it’s secondary to the main mission of preaching the Gospel. Politics doesn’t save us after all, right?
• For every worship-related reason why the Catholic Church is so great I can always find a reason to counter that. For example, some love the liturgy, but others cannot get anything out of the old liturgical style of worship, because it’s just empty rituals to them. And why should communion be reserved to only Catholics, isn’t that offensive? And if confession is so important why do most people not do it, and live a life of “Catholic guilt”?
• In general, why are Catholic churches so dead and boring? Isn’t the faith “more alive” in a Protestant church? I appreciate that Protestant churches have more entertaining music, are more welcoming, will say hi to you if you’re new, and will ask you to fill out a welcome card so they can get back to you! Even if it’s annoying and in your face, it at least shows they care! Where are the people that care in a Catholic church, besides the nuns (many which give me platitudes of advice when I talk to them)? I just get the sense that the Catholic faith is so personal, but why can’t Catholics get involved with the lives of others, form small groups, and talk about faith with each other? I get the sense that there’s a disconnect between priests and nuns and laypeople, because they live a life of cloistered study. Where are the laypeople that care and I can talk about faith with?
• In general I just don’t see Catholics practicing their faith, the way Protestants do. The Catholic Church does have the edge intellectually, but why doesn’t that translate into a growing, vibrant church? All I see is a moribund, boring church with inconsistency in the beliefs among members. In fact, Catholics who convert to Protestantism complain that the Catholic Church is just a bunch of rote rituals with no meaning. Maybe they need to stop sticking to tradition just to stick to it, adopt more contemporary worship, be more welcoming, and not be so politically involved, so they can convert the younger generation??

Sorry this is long and unfocused, but my mind is in such conflict about all areas of Catholicism. The Catholic Church has such potential, but right now Protestant churches have the edge in how “alive” their faith is. I just don’t see Catholics stepping up. Why don’t the bishops just excommunicate people left and right anymore? I do need to figure out where my faith is gonna turn next, so I appreciate your help.

Keep in mind there are Catholics and there is the Catholic Church. The Catholic church holds the truth and possesses some members that choose not to believe or follow the truth.

 

[jaben]

You raise lots of questions we Catholics even ask ourselves–particularly when it comes to “liberal” catholic parishes who seem to practice anything they want and not what the Church teaches by Christ’s command.

A devout Catholic in no way thinks the Mass is boring. It is truly exciting in every way. Even when as a young boy with the Latin Mass, I remember following it word for word in English with my Missal.

I do agree though with you about some of the hymns that are sung these days that might make these areas of the Mass not so interesting. Where they get them is beyond where I would look. Many of the old beautiful Catholic hymns have been left out these days. And, I think this is tragic.

But, if you speak about beliefs and practices, the Catholic Church has never wavered since the times of Christ, whereas other churches have gone with public opinion.

Listen to WGTN radio and you will get lots of good advice and questions answered. It is my favorite station–which I listen to all the time. I have been a Catholic all my 64 years and am still learning from the wonderful people they have on that station.

And, remember, too, that it is my faith in the Church that has inspired me all these years even when I don’t understand something. Then, eventually, (sometimes even on EWTN), my questions have been answered.

So, I guess, you are at least interested in the Catholic Church. God is pushing you in that direction. Don’t fight it and believe. You won’t be sorry.

 

[St_Francis]

Tradition: I love the tradition. I love knowing that the passages read at my parish are being read by all Catholics that week. As a protestant, the ‘series’ of sermons varies week by week and church to church. There’s no connection to history or other Christians when you worship at a Protestant church. In the Catholic church, history is all around you. There’s something special about praying the same prayers as other neighbors and other Catholics throughout the world that is hard to explain. It connects us in a different way than singing the same worship song in one specific brand of protestantism. It’s apples/oranges different.

BTW: Catholic youth group is usually where you find the guitar players/dancing. Not Mass. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if they were at World Youth Day either.

As for abortion/gay rights, I still have to wonder what it is in your soul that makes you question church teaching on these issues. Usually there’s some underlying issue to the rhetoric that people don’t want to talk about or admit.

W/me, I didn’t want to see that my mother was a sinner or “bad” for having an abortion in the '60’s. At the time, she had to cross state lines to do it and I used to think that was “cruel and unusual punishment”. That’s one of the reasons why she became anorexic (I hope you read my early post about how my mom died). I’ve always wondered if that child would have been my sister or brother. I can’t remember a time when I haven’t. Most children just don’t want to see their parents a flawed people who make bad choices.

Given my chaotic family situations/experiences, I don’t think the church is wrong when it tells women and men to wait for sex. I don’t think that how modern people do relationships is correct and should be held up as a good standard for people to follow.

People like to think that their moral standards are just as good as the church’s standards, but that’s just BS. Our society is a mess, primarily, because of the way we do ‘family’ these days. Or, rather, how we don’t do family these days.

I value my uniqueness as an individual. However, I would love it if our modern society would be a little less modern and more traditional. I think anyone who has kids and is trying to raise them in this culture would agree with that. It’s really hard when society isn’t kid-friendly and focused on adult pleasure. That’s why I disagree a lot with modern society. It’s not about future generations, but the adults. And the adults just don’t have their stuff together (for the most part!).

Later -

What a beautiful and loving post.

 

[CaliLobo]

St Francis:

That’s a good question: how do *you *know that what *you *believe about Christ is true?

I know how it is that I know: I have faith in Christ and trust Him. I believe that He will keep His promises, and when He said that He would send the Holy Spirit to protect the Church from teaching error, I trust that He has, is, and will continue to do so.

I also believe that He is the fulfillment of the Law rather than establishing a new law.

Rather than subscribing to the Catholic system of Magisterium, Tradition, Confession, and devotion to saints, which has not saved a thing (by the way, the only person who can change anyone’s life is Jesus), I use my personal relationship with Jesus. He reveals things to me, and I double check with the Bible to know I’m not deceiving myself.

Like I said in post #287, couldn’t it be DANGEROUS to just subscribe to whatever a church says? Isn’t there individual responsiblity and accountability? So what if there are 30000 Protestant denominations, what’s so wrong with that? If a church does wrong, it is the responsible thing to do to walk away and move on.

Isn’t a personal relationship with God (which Protestants emphasize) more important than the Catholic system?
St Francis:

where do you live, San Francisco? (Rhetorial question) You do realize that only about 2% of the US population is homosexual?

Only 2% of the US has openly come out as gay. But there are many, many more that haven’t come out. And many, many people have experimented with the same sex, though they may not consider themselves gay.

Sexuality is a continuum between partially gay and partially straight. Add to that bi, asexual, queer, and so on. Sexuality is not black and white; it’s complicated.

Christ tells all who are unmarried that they are not to engage in sexual activity; there is no “picking on” homosexuals.

As to anything else, the Church teaches that having homosexual inclinations is not a reason for any form of discrimination. So I am not sure what you are talking about here.

I don’t know what His interaction or lack thereof with Rome has to do with anything, but yes, I do believe that Christ would continue to teach that sexual activity is for *procreation, *not for pleasure. The pleasure is a gift from God to help two people for whom it is very important to stay together through think and thin (to raise children) to do so. Do you really think that God gave us the ability to work with Him in the creation of new human beings, and that Christ came and died on the cross to redeem hs from sin so that we could than go and do wahatever we like with this gift? How can you think about the suffering Christ went through and not feel compassion for Him? How can you not want to live *better *for Him?

But the very idea of denying gays the equal right to marry IS discrimination per se.

Overall it seems that you have a particular notion about Christ, and it seems this notion is that He is a lot like… well, you. And your friends. A nice guy who would surely never tell people that they can’t have what they want. A social libertarian who just wants everyone to have a good time.

So, on what evidence do you base this idea of Christ?

eddie too:

how can it be a loving act to tell people who fornicate that it will not impact their immortal soul and eternal destiny?

homosexual activity is definitely fornication since, according to Jesus, marriage is between one man and one woman.

how can it be ok to ignore and not oppose the murder of innocent people?

how can you find it Christ-like to advocate that such murders be permitted under the law?

afterall, abortion is the deliberately putting an end to an innocent life and that is the very definition of murder.

Because Jesus never did anything politically against Rome in the Bible. Because the Bible says NOTHING on point that we have to politically oppose these things. There used to be laws against fornication and divorce. Why doesn’t the CC support them now? How about laws against pornography and prostitution? Should we continue to support the losing war on drugs?

When I see women suffering from pregnancies and bad marriages, it’s clear how foolish laws banning abortion and divorce would be. When I see my coworkers, just as bright and brilliant as anyone else, why would I advocate that they can’t have the same benefits and privileges of life? The gays have suffered enough.

We cannot legislate morality. All the time and effort Catholics spend politicking, they could instead spend it by preaching the Gospel. Getting people to convert. Because politics and laws don’t change human behavior; only belief in Jesus does. And if Magisterium and Tradition hinder belief in Jesus, we need an upgrade.

The Protestants have figured that out and that is why they flourish, and the CC shrinks. How is the divisiveness of politics a type of good spiritual fruit??

You guys keep talking about Catholic charities and hospitals run by the clergy, but where is the participation of Catholic laypeople in the Great Commission? Isn’t the Great Commission for everyone?

I’m sorry if I mocked the Real Presence. But I wanted to point out that it’s the fruit of Galatians 5 that indicates Jesus’ presence, and not the Eucharist. We are judged by our fruit, right? Can we really delegate the Great Commission to just the clergy?

Kal2012 mentioned if I have an underlying issue. My only issue is that Christians will be relegated as an irrelevant hate group. My only issue is being persecuted by my gay coworkers for an unnecessary reason.

P.S. I’m male.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Thanks for clearing up your gender. Sorry for calling you a “she” lol.

I think it is time to actually say what is really obvious here. You are in no way “looking” at the Catholic faith! Let’s be honest now. You came on here and posted this thread with the intent on stirring up trouble. If you really have all these “issues” with the Church then you really would not want to join. You are taking a crack at the Church and many people, including myself, took the hook, line and sinker. I will pray for you and I dearly mean that. I pray the God will soften your heart towards his church and remove your will and install His own. This is my last post in this thread and I sincerely hope you find peace in your life and release the hate! God be with you!

 

[Kal2012]

My only issue is that Christians will be relegated as an irrelevant hate group. My only issue is being persecuted by my gay coworkers for an unnecessary reason…

Look at how the US government is treating people who are against the HHS mandate on contraception/abortion. We are already a hate group and actively being marginalized today!

Hmmm…I don’t remember reading anything in the Bible about Christians being here to be liked. I hope that someone will correct me, if I’m wrong.

I get not wanting to make waves with people you work with, but ultimately, co-workers and jobs come and go. Jesus is forever.

Unless you work in a political environment (like a political campaign/on someone’s office staff, etc), there’s really no reason why you can’t say “I prefer not to talk about controversial things at work or w/my coworkers”.

It’s trickier in political environments to get away with non-answers like that, but it is still doable. I’ve smiled and nodded through a lot of conversations where I totally disagreed with what was being said because I didn’t want to ‘That person’.

If it really bothers you that much, then talk to a priest about it. I think that you’d be surprised at how priests try to help their gay Catholic parishioners in real life.

 

[Stephen168]

My only issue is that Christians will be relegated as an irrelevant hate group.

Only by people who are ignorant and intolerant.

My only issue is being persecuted by my gay coworkers for an unnecessary reason.

Education yourself, so you can educate them. Hopefully, you will both become more tolerant, and lose your desire to persecute Christians.

The Church does not support injustice.

 

[Kal2012]

All the time and effort Catholics spend politicking, they could instead spend it by preaching the Gospel. The Protestants have figured that out and that is why they flourish, and the CC shrinks. How is the divisiveness of politics a type of good spiritual fruit??

Sorry, but your argument doesn’t haven’t merit once you get beyond the rhetoric. The bluster sounds good, but Catholics have just as much right as any other American to be involved with the political process. .

This argument is really just ignorant about how religion and politics work in the US. Have you ever heard of an atheist president? Neither have I. Religion is a big deal in America and that’s why politicians go after the religious vote and use religious rhetoric and try to get the religious community into their causes.

The idea that protestants aren’t divisive and political is just crazy! They’re dividers too! Think Mike Huckabee/Rick Santorum on one side - on the other - The Revs. Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton. Protestants are a lot more divisive than Catholics ever could be.

 

[Stephen168]

Rather than subscribing to the Catholic system of Magisterium, Tradition, Confession, and devotion to saints, which has not saved a thing (by the way, the only person who can change anyone’s life is Jesus), I use my personal relationship with Jesus. He reveals things to me, and I double check with the Bible to know I’m not deceiving myself.

I see also accept Catholic Tradition.

In general, you assume things to be mutually exclusive when they are not. I see this thinking in people who are hostile to a situation/person/belief/institution.

 

[fish79]

Interesting thread. I still have some doubts about the Catholic church, but I believe most Catholics have doubts at one point in their lives.

Personally I would have never been convinced by any other denomination to become a Christian. I find catholic claims fascinating and so sure of herself, with bold clear statements that never budge by the pressures in our society to change. What change? Morality never changes depending on human will.

The catholic church founder is Jesus Christ himself, I don’t fall for human religions. Catholism is not even a religion in my view.

 

[eddie_too]

to set the record straight, the Roman Catholic Church is not shrinking. Its membership is growing in the USA and throughout the world. \

Whoever is stating otherwise is completely misinformed or deliberately lying.

 

[eddie_too]

this is taken from calilobo’s post. the first part i wrote. the second part is calilobo’s rebuttal.

Originally Posted by eddie too
how can it be a loving act to tell people who fornicate that it will not impact their immortal soul and eternal destiny?

homosexual activity is definitely fornication since, according to Jesus, marriage is between one man and one woman.

how can it be ok to ignore and not oppose the murder of innocent people?

how can you find it Christ-like to advocate that such murders be permitted under the law?

afterall, abortion is the deliberately putting an end to an innocent life and that is the very definition of murder.

calilobor responded as follows:

Because Jesus never did anything politically against Rome in the Bible. Because the Bible says NOTHING on point that we have to politically oppose these things. There used to be laws against fornication and divorce. Why doesn’t the CC support them now? How about laws against pornography and prostitution? Should we continue to support the losing war on drugs?

new response by eddie too to calilobo comment.

nothing i wrote above says anything about politics even though calilobo writes as though it did.

it is obvious that my comment is totally related to the teachings of Jesus Christ and whether or not it is loving to refuse to educate people on those teachings and questioning how it can be loving to allow a person to remain ignorant of those teachings.

it seems as though calilobo is advocating that people remain silent well innocent people are murdered.

it seems as though calilobo is advocating that the Church not preach the moral teachings of Jesus Christ regarding human sexuality.

i have no idea why calilobo would believe that it is better to keep the teachings of Jesus Christ out of the public sphere.

Jesus did advocate that people involve themselves in preaching His words.

Jesus did admonish those who refused to participate in the corporal and spiritual works of mercy, among which are informing the ignorant. those who are unaware of the Lord’s teachings on human sexuality are part of the ignorant the followers of Jesus are obligated to educate.

it is sheer foolishness and immoral to think that Jesus does not want His followers to protect the weak and innocent, i.e. the pre-born human beings.

the trend i see developing on this thread is for calilobo refusing to engage in meaningful commentary and to persistently post the same anti-catholic attacks over and over.

i have no idea of calilobo’s motivation for doing this. it may even be that calilobo does not realize he is doing this.

many have responded directly to calilobo’s attacks on the catholic faith. these responses have been well reasoned, coming from many angles and worthy of respectful responses.

instead as i demonstrated above, calilobo posts inaccurate information as though they are facts, i.e. the membership in the catholic church is declining (that is unsupportably by any legitimate source); and, changes responses so as to make it appear that a person is making statements that they have not made.

in the end, for calilobo and the rest of mankind, faith is a gift from almighty God. if human beings could use reason to acquire what is provided them by almighty God and His Divine Son, the Incarnate Word, the Incarnation would have been unnecessary.

i will continue to pray for calilobo’s sould just as i pray for all souls. based solely on calilobo’s comments on this thread, i have doubts that calilobo is either sincere about his seeking answers to the anti-catholic attacks he is propagating.

 

[eddie_too]

human reason alone cannot bring a person to faith in Jesus Christ or the Roman Catholic Church.

faith is entirely a gift from God.

Jesus is a real human being. Jesus was very definitive in His teachings.

the very idea that those teachings could be contradictory in any manner as advocated by the multitude on non-catholic christian churches flies in the face of the theological virtue of faith wherein the teachings of almighty God and His divine Son are accepted because They can neither deceive nor be deceived.

 

[eddie_too]

i apologize to all who think i have just posted rants, but i lost patience with the persistent attacks being posted and the deliberate misconstruing of responses to those attacks as well as the propagation of misinformation by the attacker.

i withhold judgment as to whether calilobo is being deliberately provocativel or simply incapable of commenting and responding with accurate and reasonable posts.

God bless you all.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Rather than subscribing to the Catholic system of Magisterium, Tradition, Confession, and devotion to saints, which has not saved a thing (by the way, the only person who can change anyone’s life is Jesus), I use my personal relationship with Jesus. He reveals things to me, and I double check with the Bible to know I’m not deceiving myself.

Would you explain to me where you got the Bible? And on what authority you except the Bible as the word of God? What do you do when what you believe has been revealed to you differs from what someone else believes was revealed to them–and you disagree with them as to what x Bible passage means? How do you know who is right? Are you not claiming for yourself–the authority the Catholic Church claims for itself and which you are dismissing?

**

We cannot legislate morality.

**

We do it all the time. it is illegal to steal and murder for example. Those are moral laws. We legislate morality all the time–lets not say that we don’t or rather can’t.

Peace,
Mark

 

[jmcrae]

Rather than subscribing to the Catholic system of Magisterium, Tradition, Confession, and devotion to saints, which has not saved a thing (by the way, the only person who can change anyone’s life is Jesus), I use my personal relationship with Jesus. He reveals things to me, and I double check with the Bible to know I’m not deceiving myself.

The Catholic Church is the vehicle through which Christ works in our lives.

Like I said in post #287, couldn’t it be DANGEROUS to just subscribe to whatever a church says? Isn’t there individual responsiblity and accountability? So what if there are 30000 Protestant denominations, what’s so wrong with that? If a church does wrong, it is the responsible thing to do to walk away and move on.

What makes you more of an expert than thousands of Bishops around the world working together these past 2,000 years? What do you know all by yourself working from very little, that they can’t know with direct knowledge taught to them by Jesus and the Apostles, and every book ever written?

But the very idea of denying gays the equal right to marry IS discrimination per se.

No more than not giving driver licences to the blind. What part of"not capae of marriage" is so confusing?

 

[cheezey]

I think it is time to actually say what is really obvious here. You are in no way “looking” at the Catholic faith! Let’s be honest now

Cali
For the most part I have just been observing this particular forum.
Can you state just 2-3 definitive reasons why you **would **join the RCC? Leave out the “issues” and “concerns”, just state what is closest to your heart. Briefly. Thanks.