Intrigued by Catholicism, but just can't convert for many reasons

[joe370]

Perhaps such a church was NOT founded in the 1st century. Perhaps the modern Evangelical church represents the future of Christianity…

OK. Let’s say Jesus, when He said - I will build my church - He was not referring to the church to which the apostles belonged to, but rather a modern day Evangelical church. Please identify the church?

 

[CaliLobo]

joe370:

Hey Cal. In your opinion, what should the correct criterion or criteria be for selecting a church to belong to in a world with so many autonomous churches?

For Protestants, it’s more than Communion or the Eucharist. It’s also:

1. Good worship (you experienced God with the worship)
2. Good teaching (God is speaking to you through the sermon, ministries, or people in the church)
3. The teaching is Biblical

And on the side:
3. Cool people (where you can find acceptance, after all, it’s not Christlike to reject people created in God’s image)
3A. But at the same time, the people are not hypocritical (and you can use the Holy Spirit or flat out common sense to discern that)
4. Programs for children
5. Fun activities or events

 

[CaliLobo]

joe370:

OK. Let’s say Jesus, when He said - I will build my church - He was not referring to the church to which the apostles belonged to, but rather a modern day Evangelical church. Please identify the church?

You’re asking me to name a name. But the Holy Spirit is not moving in just one church.

 

[joe370]

For Protestants, it’s more than Communion or the Eucharist. It’s also:

1. Good worship (you experienced God with the worship)
2. Good teaching (God is speaking to you through the sermon, ministries, or people in the church)
3. The teaching is Biblical

And on the side:
3. Cool people (where you can find acceptance, after all, it’s not Christlike to reject people created in God’s image)
3A. But at the same time, the people are not hypocritical (and you can use the Holy Spirit or flat out common sense to discern that)
4. Programs for children
5. Fun activities or events

This is your criteria for selecting a church in a world with so many autonomous churches? OK.

Good teaching does not always translate to sound teaching. Sound teaching is preserved and transmitted through the church founded by Jesus, versus a church founded by mere man/woman. In your opinion, which church might that be? It seems reasonable to conclude: if you locate that church you will be good to go.

 

[joe370]

You’re asking me to name a name. But the Holy Spirit is not moving in just one church.

True. However, I am speaking of the preservation and transmission of doctrinal truth. Truth, as you know is not relative i.e. the Lutheran, Baptist and Catholic church (all of which believe something different) cannot not all be right about the Eucharist.

 

[CaliLobo]

joe370:

Sound teaching is preserved and transmitted through the church founded by Jesus, versus a church founded by mere man/woman. In your opinion, which church might that be? It seems reasonable to conclude: if you locate that church you will be good to go.

Isn’t that the crux of it? Once again, how do you continue to support the legitimacy of Apostolic Succession despite its spurious Biblical basis (God may have created an invisible church on the Rock) and the historical wrongs and abuses of the CC? Does Benedict really think the same as the Apostles? Is today’s CC really the same as the original church in Acts, when the CC has canonized new traditions over time?

Don’t all Protestant churches claim to be founded by God’s (Jesus’) divine will, therefore bypassing the need for Apostolic Succession? Yes, some denominations aren’t following Christ. But isn’t it possible that there is flexibility in the Truth, and mystery in other topics of faith?

 

[joe370]

CaliLobo;10302773]Isn’t that the crux of it? Once again, how do you continue to support the legitimacy of Apostolic Succession despite its spurious Biblical basis (God may have created an invisible church on the Rock)

Apostolic succession is clearly found in the bible. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the death of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, “What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

…and the historical wrongs and abuses of the CC? Does Benedict really think the same as the Apostles? Is today’s CC really the same as the original church in Acts, when the CC has canonized new traditions over time?

No two people necessarily think alike. However, doctrinal truth is preserved and transmitted through Jesus’ church to which saint Paul belong and Benedict belongs.

Doctrinally speaking, including doctrinal developments e.g the Trinity, yes.

Why would it remain the same? We both know that none of the protestant churches are the same as the original church in Acts, when the CC canonized sacred scripture long before the existence of any Protestant churches.

The CC embraces both sacred tradition and sacred scripture. Protestantism embraces only sacred scripture but bases everything on human tradition e.g. sola scriptura.

Don’t all Protestant churches claim to be founded by God’s (Jesus’) divine will, therefore bypassing the need for Apostolic Succession?

I used to think the same, as a former protestant, until it occurred to me that I could provide the name of the man or woman that founded each and every PC and it was not Jesus. Hmmm…

As part of your criteria, (as was the case with me) shouldn’t the name of the person that founded the church be Jesus the Christ, even if you do not believe that Jesus founded His church when He walked the earth?

 

[joe370]

If this is what you believe then why does it matter which church you end up belonging to. If you believe that all churches were founded by God’s (Jesus’) divine will, therefore bypassing the need for Apostolic Succession, then just pick one that you believe is correctly following Jesus Christ.

If you believe that there is flexibility in the Truth, regarding the Eucharist, e.g. real presence versus symbolic, then again, church affiliation should not matter.

 

[jmcrae]

Perhaps such a church was NOT founded in the 1st century. Perhaps the modern Evangelical church represents the future of Christianity…

So, Jesus waited 2,000 years before founding His Church? And just left His Apostles to flounder around without any guidance whatsoever?!

 

[vsedriver]

So how we know that Catholicism is that doctrine, when Apostolic Succession is questionable and the Magisterium has arguably lost its way?? No one has directly attacked my argument is Jesus is the High Priest forever.

Apostolic succession is not questionable. Christ is not only the High Priest forever he is King forever. When a king leaves his kingdom for a time he gives his keys to his chief steward. The chief steward rules in the king’s absence. Jesus gave the keys to Peter. the offices within a kingdom don’t end when the officeholder dies. The keys pass to Peter’s successor. Where Peter is, there is Christ’s church.

I have yet to see you present evidence that the Magisterium has lost it’s way. If you say that the church teaching on contraception is wrong then it is for you to prove that what the church bases its reasoning on is flawed.

Jesus is the High Priest forever but that doesn’t mean he did away with ordained priests serving the body of Christ. Even the temple had priests serving with the High Priest. Jesus did not come to do away with the law but to perfect it. He did not do away with priests or the sacrifice. He perfected it.

Could it be true that the Truth about some issues is that there is flexibility? Eddie too, I am not saying the Church shouldn’t preach about morals, but regarding what to do in the political arena, there is definitely flexibility, as once again, Jesus never did anything politically.

the church only teaches that it is immoral to support immoral positions. Such as saying if you vote for legalizing abortion you are commiting a sin as you are taking active part in the killing of innocents. You can’t keep your morality behind closed doors and be a faithful Christian. Jesus said give to God what is God’s and to Caesar what is Caesars. Laws that affect morality are the domain of God. Taxes are the state’s domain. If we are to have a society ordered toward Godliness then Christians must participate in the public arena.

How do you know Jesus wants his prayer answered yes now?? As long as sin is on this earth and sin causes division, how could it possibly be answered yes now??

All through the bible Jesus stresses the Now. But with prayer and the grace of God all things are possible. Non-Catholics only fear the Catholic Church because they don’t know the Catholic Church. You don’t know the Catholic Church either, and I can tell that by your posts.

It doesn’t matter that all Catholics don’t practice the faith perfectly. It is the faith that is perfect not the people. Many turn away from the Church because they have trouble with authority. Americans especially have a problem with authority. Modern society lacks an understanding of symbolism and therefore has difficulty with ritual and liturgy.

Not all worship of God requires a feeling. People who say "I get nothing out of Mass’ are missing the point. It doesn’t have to give you an emotional high. One should give of oneself without the expectation of anything in return.

If the Catholic Church can teach error than all churches teach error and we have been abandoned as orphans. Jesus promised he would not leave us orphans. If the Holy Spirit doesn’t speak with one voice than it is not the Holy Spirit. It is for the people to conform to the Truth, not for the Truth to conform to the people so they can maintain their God in their image instead of God in his true image.

 

[joe370]

vsedriver;10303514] It doesn’t matter that all Catholics don’t practice the faith perfectly. It is the faith that is perfect not the people.

Exactly.

If the Catholic Church can teach error than all churches teach error and we have been abandoned as orphans. Jesus promised he would not leave us orphans. If the Holy Spirit doesn’t speak with one voice than it is not the Holy Spirit. It is for the people to conform to the Truth, not for the Truth to conform to the people so they can maintain their God in their image instead of God in his true image.

Well said.

 

[CopticChristian]

Isn’t that the crux of it? Once again, how do you continue to support the legitimacy of Apostolic Succession despite its spurious Biblical basis (God may have created an invisible church on the Rock) and the historical wrongs and abuses of the CC? Does Benedict really think the same as the Apostles? Is today’s CC really the same as the original church in Acts, when the CC has canonized new traditions over time?

Don’t all Protestant churches claim to be founded by God’s (Jesus’) divine will, therefore bypassing the need for Apostolic Succession? Yes, some denominations aren’t following Christ. But isn’t it possible that there is flexibility in the Truth, and mystery in other topics of faith?

Lobo,

The crux is that your mind and the mind of those that have been taught that the book is the source of definition must define what it is you believe. Spurious Biblical basis means what? It means that when you open a book, believing that the book is the only source for belief, as you see it 2000 years later, what you don’t understand in the book is Spurious. This belief is Spurious rendering Spurious understanding and Spurious belief such as all I need is the book.

I imagine that all Protestants claim that Christianity, Jesus, waited to reveal to the world what it was He wanted us to know 500 years ago and all that was know previously is for nothing. Can I interest you in some Golden Plates and another Book about the America’s?

 

[St_Francis]

II honestly attempted to answer your question about how to determine if someone is a nonbeliever.

Wow…!

There’s a joke that the English and the Americans are one people divided by a common language… I think I got divided by our common language’s differences there. I apologize for misunderstanding your intent.

Every time I make a meritable point, it seems like I get ad hominem attacks–this time as a “lobo” in sheep’s clothing.

OTOH, it did give me the impression you were very subtly clever!

Yes I segued into evangelization. But even there I made a valid point about why Europe is so fallen, and now you think I’m proselytizing. I apologize if you felt uncomfortable but the Catholic-Protestant debate stirs up strong emotions among people (after all, there’s an open war in Ireland still). There are valid reasons why people remain Protestant. I can assure you I’m not knowingly proselytizing, since I know that none of you wish to convert.

My point was that I thought you were saying that someone who sinned was ipso facto a non-believer.

 

[eddie_too]

calilobo, you wrote the following:

1. Assurance of salvation as long as one continues to repent. (HUGE reason)
2. A direct, personal relationship to God, without the ritualistic, dogmatic, guilt-mongering system of traditions and sacraments (which I believe has ruined religion for many worldwide, like I said earlier).
3. Flexibility of worship style. You can shout and dance, and be loud to express your joy
4. Flexibility of political belief (no intangible issues; you are not in scandal for disagreeing)
5. Flexibility on anything the Bible is not clear on (for example, contraception)
6. Universal sainthood and priesthood
7. Alcohol and tobacco are taboo. Emphasis on resisting drugs. Cursing is taboo.
8. Relevance, by updating its messages with the times.
9. Ministries catering to children, married, singles, college students
10. Small group Bible studies and discipleship groups
11. More teaching, and not just to kids. Sunday sermons that actually teach (instead of ten minute homilies). That’s why even Catholics visit Protestant churches.
12. Christian music and pop culture (if you choose to partake)
13. No purgatory (Biblical basis is spurious)
14. No prayers for the dead (Biblical basis is spurious)
15. No Marian or saintly devotion (it doesn’t save anyone; living Protestants pray for each other, which is a great expression of love)
16. Need I say more?
    ////////////////////////////////////////////
    my reply is, yes you need to say more.

first of all, your list (even though it is full of false information) can be summed up by saying the RCC cannot make you free of the RCC. everything you write is a negative. it is a circular argument to say that being a member of the RCC cannot make you free of being a member of the RCC. it says nothing about what i can get from protestantsim that cannot be gained from the RCC.

instead of telling me what protestantism can provide you harp on how it rejects much of what the RCC teaches.

are you really so ignorant that you do not understand that people are, stay and become members of the RCC because of the blessings they receive from everything you reject in catholicism?

have you really been unable to intellectually grasp that all of the people here who have responded to you are giving you logical, reasonable and fact based reasons why they are and remain members of the RCC?

has it completely escaped your awareness that you have no logical or reasonable or factual responses to the reasons they have provided to you?

your saying something like “that is not how i interpret sacred scripture” does not coontain one logical, reasonable or factual reason to accept that Jesus taught us to believe whatever we come to understand from reading sacred scripture. we here provide logic and reason as well as facts to point out how shallow your beliefs are and detail what your beliefs are lacking when we write that 1) the church came before sacred scripture; 2) that sacred scripture states that not everything Jesus taught for our salvation is present in sacred scripture; or 3) that the RCC is the body of believers that determined what sacred scripture contains. when you reply to us by saying “so what”, we can only shake our heads at your unwillingness to address sound arguments with sound replies and we resolve to pray for you. is it any wonder we question your motives for being here?

as for your numbered comments, on some you need to clarify your meaning. for example, what do you mean when you write “assurance of salvation” in point 1. you apparently do not know that the RCC teaches that all who die in the state of grace are assured salvation.

on some points you are simply wrong that they are not available in the RCC. for example, points 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11 & 12 , the RCC provides these.

i have not idea what you mean with your point 7.

on point 2, again you are wrong. although i do not and i am equally sure you do not know and understand the complete teachings of all 30,000+ protestant sects, i am unaware of any that do not teach the sacrament of baptism. nor do i know of any that do not have defined dogmas such as there is only one God who is three persons. i am unfamiliar with any who do not have a ritual gathering of the community of believers every sunday for worship. also, i am unaware of any protestant sects that do not teach that all human beings are guilty of sin and must repent of their sins.

of your 16 points, only 14, 15 & 16 can even remotely be considered universal protestant teachings and since there are over 30,000 different protestant belief systems, it is difficult if not impossible to be 100 percent certain that NONE of them teach the doctrine of purgatory; that all of them teach the false doctrine that praying for the dead is pointless; or that all of them teach the false doctrine that the people in heaven cannot intercede for us before almighty God.

 

[eddie_too]

calilobo,

this may well be the last time i respond to you. the reason for this is contained below.

although i am fairly confident that you are neither intellectually prepared to engage an informed member of the RCC in theological discussion nor emotionally disposed to being able to admit your arguments lack substance, for the efficacy of others who might be reading this, i point out the simple fact that protestants ask others to pray for them all of the time is a glaring example of the inherent weakness and glaring inconsistency in persisting in teaching that we should not ask those people who are already in the presence of God to pray for us.

Jesus prayed for us while He was on earth. why do you teach that it is foolish to ask Jesus to pray for you now that He is in heaven? is it your faith that Jesus is not fully human? if He is fully human, how is it your faith to believe that we here on earth should not ask humans who are in heaven to pray for us?

anyway, based soley on all of your posts, i believe that you do not come here in a spirit of humility. you do not come here to get answers to your questions. you do not come here to learn about the RCC. your mind is made up.

from the beginning you have deceived us. you pretended that you were sincerely interested in the possibiity that you could convert if you understood the RCC better. if you had been honest, i suspect you are seldom honest especially with your self, you would have admitted when you arrived that you were dead set against everything the RCC teaches and there is nothing any of us can do to persuade you otherwise.

the most likely reason you came here was to try to destroy the RCC faith of those who might read your posts. you probably did this and justified to yourself your deceitful approach to accomplish this by telling yourself that such deceit was ok because, by being faithful members of the RCC, our souls were in jeopardy of being condemned to hell. thus you were acting to save us from ourselves and the devil. but you should have known that when you begin your relationship with others in deceit, you cannot be acting with the blessings of the Holy Spirit no matter how good you convince yourself your intentions are.

 

[Kal2012]

@ Calilobo

1. A direct, personal relationship to God, without the ritualistic, dogmatic, guilt-mongering system of traditions and sacraments (which I believe has ruined religion for many worldwide, like I said earlier).
2. Flexibility of worship style. You can shout and dance, and be loud to express your joy
3. Flexibility of political belief (no intangible issues; you are not in scandal for disagreeing)
4. Flexibility on anything the Bible is not clear on (for example, contraception)

---

#2) Respectfully, I’ll have to disagree with this one because a lot of Protestants are uber-legalistic - especially in conservative circles. I still remember the "God’s way or the Highway’ sermon one of my old pastors gave. It was in a Baptist church.

Catholic priests don’t have anything on Baptist ministers preaching hell and damnation plus the twist of guilt. That particular sermon was the one that made me realize that I really didn’t belong in that church. People talk about Catholic guilt, but they don’t have anything on the uber-conservative, independent, fundamentalist Baptists. I heard more about Catholic guilt than I’ve experienced it.

#3-5) Several of my friends are Liberals and practicing Catholics. There is room to disagree w/in the church. There is some flexibility in the worship. However, we can agree to disagree on that too.

 

[Kal2012]

1. Alcohol and tobacco are taboo. Emphasis on resisting drugs. Cursing is taboo.
2. Ministries catering to children, married, singles, college students
3. Small group Bible studies and discipleship groups

---

#7) I like the idea that people can drink one or two beers and not be on the highway to hell. It was a really shocker when I went to college and met Christians (non-Catholics) who thought it was okay to have a beer and didn’t worry about their salavation status. It’s a choice. I’ve never been a big drinker, but I don’t like the idea of condemning people because they choose to partake in moderation.

Again, judgmentalism and guilt tripping can be found just as easily in Protestantism as it is Catholicism or Judaism. Drinking was just something that my family didn’t do. Drinking a glass of wine at dinner or having a beer once in a while isn’t a big deal in other families. It’s just not something worth getting my panties all bunched up over about unless someone’s drinking is an addiction and causing harm to other people (like through drunk driving). I’m okay that Jesus turned water into wine and people drank it.

#9/#10) I’d invite you to look at the on-line bulletins of some of the local parishes (especially, the larger ones) because this statement just shows your ignorance about what actually goes on in Catholic parishes.

 

[Kal2012]

1. Christian music and pop culture (if you choose to partake)

---

#12) I’d participate more in pop culture if I thought a lot of it was worth participating in. I go to secular movies and watch TV (I’m sure that God isn’t happy w/some of my choices), listen to non-Christian/Catholic radio.

Sadly, most movies/TV and music just aren’t good these days and I’m just not into soft porn or shoot-em-up/car chase movies that pass for popular. I just don’t fit the demographic that most movie producers are trying to reach. I’m usually using the fast forward button trying to get through some of the more raunchier stuff because I want to pretend that some of the actors that I like really wouldn’t make the kind of garbage that I’m seeing. It’s kind of sad though when you can get through a 2 hour movie in an hour or less because of all the “ick” and “too much information” situations. I’ve become a big fan of TCM lately because I don’t have to worry so much about the content.

I’m also raising a young one, so we watch a lot of Disney/Pixar. Still, you have to pay attention because sometimes even the cartoons for kids are more cartoons for adults - even on the cartoon stations. I just don’t like most popular music. It’s a personal choice. Again, a lot of conservative protestants are a lot more strict than their Catholic counterparts. I know this because I grew up in a strict, uber-legalistic conservative Protestant church.

 

[Kal2012]

No need to read the same passage. It’s like sharing a meal, sport or activity, or ethnicity together. Something in common, like having the Holy Spirit.

It’s about being connected to others in your community, locally and not locally. There’s something special about knowing that every Catholic throughout the world is reading the same passages and sharing in the same experience. There’s a common frame of reference when you talk about going to mass. Protestant services just don’t have that communal feature.

When people share a meal, they share the whole meal. They don’t set some aside and pretend that it’s not there.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is something that Protestants have in common, but practically, that’s empty if that’s all you have. People hold up diversity as if its a virtue, but the problem is that it negates the fact that there is a right and a wrong.

If one branch of the your ‘brand’ is teaching the opposite of what another branch is teaching, then how do you determine which teaching is right given that both branches claim that they are teaching the truth and using discernment skills and the Holy Spirit to get to the truth?

It’s one thing to act out the truth in different ways, but it’s another to claim that something is the truth when it isn’t.

I know people who are perfectly happy being Protestants and I’ve come to believe it’s because their church experiences just weren’t as shallow as mine was. They had family to guide them and worship beside them.

I hear you when you say that you don’t like the hierarchy and the structure, but a lot of people crave structure because they haven’t had a lot of it elsewhere. I like the knowing that the church hasn’t changed much in over 2000 years and continues to survive, despite Martin Luther and sex scandals and modern Western culture. Given my background, I value stability more than I value flexibility. I’m willing to sacrifice some of my personal preferences for a church worship service to be in full communion with the true Church. It is what it is.

 

[eddie_too]

kal2012,

i love reading your posts. your insights give me so much information and knowledge to which, as a cradle catholic i have had limited access.

thank you for sharing.