Intrigued by Catholicism, but just can't convert for many reasons

[Stephen168]

Don’t all Protestant churches **claim **to be founded by God’s (Jesus’) divine will, therefore bypassing the need for Apostolic Succession? Yes,

it is a false claim. Making a claim doesn’t make it true. As it is with your false claims about the Catholic Church.

Maybe you could take some time away from making shotgun false claims against the Catholic Church and laser in one claim long enough to attempt to actually prove it.

I honestly attempted to answer your question about how to determine if someone is a nonbeliever.

Maybe you could answer his question about where you get your authority. You seem to be dodging it at every turn.
I do understand how difficult it is to defend your position when it is much easier to make false claims against the Catholic Church. Much easier to make up stuff then defend the truth.

Lobo,
Can I interest you in some Golden Plates and another Book about the America’s?

It does seem that CaliLobo would the kind of person who would follow Joseph Smith. Smith’s “claims” were amazing, and it seems making claims is all that is necessary.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Isn’t that the crux of it? Once again, how do you continue to support the legitimacy of Apostolic Succession despite its spurious Biblical basis (God may have created an invisible church on the Rock) and the historical wrongs and abuses of the CC? Does Benedict really think the same as the Apostles? Is today’s CC really the same as the original church in Acts, when the CC has canonized new traditions over time?

Spurious Biblical basis? It seems clear in Acts. It seems quite Biblical. Why are you so hung up on the wrongs and abuses of sinful men? We all commit wrongs because we are all sinful men. Given this premise of yours–you shouldn’t accept the Bible or listen to the teachings of any man–you should just wander aimlessly. Peter denied Christ. Paul persecuted the Church. And it seems clear from scripture that both continued to sin their whole lives–why do you trust what the Church tells you they wrote given their failings as men? Lets be quite clear–we are men and we sin–as such all men, including those who lead churches will sin–that really has nothing to do with the truth of what is taught. This also seems quite clear in scripture. If the Holy Spirit guided sinful men to pen scripture and guided the bishops of the early Catholic Church to canonize said scripture–what precludes the Holy Spirit from continuing to work in sinful men down through the ages–as was promised?

Don’t all Protestant churches claim to be founded by God’s (Jesus’) divine will, therefore bypassing the need for Apostolic Succession? Yes, some denominations aren’t following Christ. But isn’t it possible that there is flexibility in the Truth, and mystery in other topics of faith?

I don’t know what all protestant churches claim but how can you bypass something that was instituted by Christ and continued by his apostles? Christ chose aposttles whom he sent and who ordained others whom they sent–this has been going on for roughly 2000 years. There is no indication Christ abrogated it. What is clear is that men who want to submit to no authority but their own claim it is not important–even though it seemed important to the early Church.

It doesn’t seem that Truth is flexible. It seems that man wants it to be. There may be areas where the Truth has not yet been fully revealed or where we have not yet been guided to an understanding and where we are free to hold varying views–as long as those views do not conflct with some other revealed Truth. But can you provide an example of what you think of as a "flexible’ Truth?

Peace,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

1. Assurance of salvation as long as one continues to repent. (HUGE reason) Because I am not sure exactly what you mean by “continues to repent” i.e. what that involves for you–I am not going to address this one.
2. A direct, personal relationship to God, without the ritualistic, dogmatic, guilt-mongering system of traditions and sacraments (which I believe has ruined religion for many worldwide, like I said earlier). Why is it that you think Catholics are prohibited from or do not have a relationship with our Lord? We have a relationship with our Lord – it is just deeper and involves repentance, taking up our cross, following Christ, doing the will of his Father, – it involves doing the things Jesus commanded of us. It’s not just saying Jesus loves me and letting it go at that.
3. Flexibility of worship style. You can shout and dance, and be loud to express your joy We can have these things–just not at Mass. There is a time and place for everything. Worshiping God is not limited to Mass. We have praise and worship services as well as Eucharistic adoration. We have various styles of worship–you’re limiting your criticism to one expression of our worship of God and ignoring the others.
4. Flexibility of political belief (no intangible issues; you are not in scandal for disagreeing)The Church doesn’t have a teaching on ones political beliefs or on what party, if any party, one should belong to. That said our religious beliefs should inform how we vote–given that we are allowed to vote and shape our society in this country. Doesn’t your faith in Christ shape how you vote? If not why not?
5. Flexibility on anything the Bible is not clear on (for example, contraception) I think we would say that our teaching is correct and flows from what the Bible says. This teaching was not in dispute among Christians until the 1930’s. The Catholic Church still upholds this ancient teaching. Doesn’t that give you pause? Is morality really subject to change? Did all Christians for 1900 years get it wrong–and only those enlightened 20th century Christians found the true teaching? Or is it more likely that man gave into his weakness and changed this moral teaching to suit his own desires?
6. Universal sainthood and priesthood You realize that the Catholic Church recognizes these things don’t you? We just have a ministerial priesthood also–both of which are Biblical.
7. Alcohol and tobacco are taboo. Perhaps you should let Jesus know about this taboo on alcohol as he did not seem to share it with you. So is this a Biblical teaching or is this a protestant teaching not found in the Bible? And I personally know many protestants who drink–not that that really says anythng about the validity of the teaching but it’s a charge you like to throw around about Catholics so I thought I’d return the favor.

Emphasis on resisting drugs. Cursing is taboo. What would make you think Catholics are not also against these things?

1. Relevance, by updating its messages with the times. The Church is plenty relevant. The message doesn’t need to be updated it needs to be lived! If the world saw all Catholics truly living their faith–and willing to be persecuted and die for it–you’d see it grow by leaps and bounds. And I think the time is coming in this culture–when we will have that opportunity in this society. What really shows the falsness of your statement though is the growth of the Muslim faith–which clearly does not promote an updated message, but what you see are people extremely committed to their belief–and it is the committment that attracts people. There are too many luke warm Catholics and protestants. People should be coming to the faith because we have the Truth–not because they like the music or the particular priest. They should be coming to worship God and not to be entertained or have a great social experience. Christs message hasn’t changed. It is repent, take up you cross and follow me and do the will of his Father. Today people do not want to repent, do not want to take up their cross and do not want to do the will of the father—they want to be affirmed in their sin, deny their cross and do their own will and that is a relevance we don’t need.
2. Ministries catering to children, married, singles, college students Of course we have none of this in the Catholic Church. Sarcasm here.
3. Small group Bible studies and discipleship groups We have had Bible study at my parish for over 20 years I think–for as long as I have been in the parish. We also have various other small groups and ministries.

Continued

 

[MarkInOregon]

1. Christian music and pop culture (if you choose to partake) What makes you think we can’t or don’t listen to Christian music? I am listening to Wow Hits 2012 as I type. As for pop culture–I’m not sure why any Christian would want to partake of an increasingly pagan pop culture–other than to try and transform it. Of course we are not forbidden to partake.
2. No purgatory (Biblical basis is spurious) Perhaps if protestants before you had not removed books form the canon of Sripture you wouldn’t say this.
3. No prayers for the dead (Biblical basis is spurious) Ditto.
4. No Marian or saintly devotion (it doesn’t save anyone; living Protestants pray for each other, which is a great expression of love) Catholics do that also. We just ask those who are in heaven to pray for us also–they are alive not dead you know–you can see this in Revelations. It should also be noted that devotion to and asking a living person to pray for you does not save anyone either. Further the Catholic Church does not teach that asking for the intercession of Mary or another saint saves anyone–perhaps you should take a primer on actual Catholic teaching and practice before you come and level spurious accusations.
5. Need I say more? No. You have said quite enough and most, if not all, of it shows a gross lack of knowledge regarding the Catholic Church, its practices and its teachings.

I sincerely pray that you take the time to actually investigate what the Church teaches. Maybe just read the Catechism of the Catholic Church–it is available online for free–and then come back and argue with us about what we actually teach rather than just taking pot shots at a myriad of what are caricatures of our beliefs.

Peace be with you.
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

1. More teaching, and not just to kids. Sunday sermons that actually teach (instead of ten minute homilies). That’s why even Catholics visit Protestant churches.

Sorry I missed this one.

Mass is to worship God. Take a look at the Mass and compare it to early descriptiions of worship as found in say Justin Martyr. My parish has provided (and continues to provide) opportunities to get teaching–after Mass, on Wednesdays and we have educational materials in the back of our church–but the truth be told these are always attended mostly by the same committed catholics–most parishioners don’t come–and that is sad. We have the teaching. Maybe one could say we have more worship.

Peace be with you,
Mark

 

[St_Francis]

Wow…!

There’s a joke that the English and the Americans are one people divided by a common language… I think I got divided by our common language’s differences there. I apologize for misunderstanding your intent.

OTOH, it did give me the impression you were very subtly clever!

My point was that I thought you were saying that someone who sinned was ipso facto a non-believer.

Well, after I read your comments, Cali, I went back and looked over the beginnging of the post to which I responded and decided to apologize. Then I went to reply to the post and saw why I had written what I’d written.

So it’s kinda like this: you post snarky, condescending, and/or insulting comments about the Church, and when we call you on it, you say we are responding with ad hominem attacks.

Now, you have *said * you want to learn about the Catholic Faith, but you have given no other evidence that that is what you want. It’s *fine *if you want to debate, start a new thread and say you want to debate! Just don’t come in *saying *you want to learn and the do nothing but debate and insult our Church and condescend to us.

And if you want to know what I’m talking about, just go back and read that post.

And btw, the way you are acting here, whether it’s from wanting to hide your motives or honest ignorance about how to behave yourself, is not in any way showing us the force of your arguments. You may be able to fast-talk some less-educated people in Latin America, whose Faith has been taken apart by enemies of the Catholic Chirch, but here you are just showing a bad example of what you are trying to say.

 

[nishkalank]

I sincerely and earnestly request to conclude this episode. When people willingly disagree or reject valid arguments, there does not seem to be any purpose in repeating the same from both sides. It is my humble suggestion please.

 

[joe370]

I sincerely and earnestly request to conclude this episode. When people willingly disagree or reject valid arguments, there does not seem to be any purpose in repeating the same from both sides. It is my humble suggestion please.

I tend to agree. Cal has been given some good answers…Perhaps it is time for him to mull it over a bit…

 

[Kal2012]

kal2012,

i love reading your posts. your insights give me so much information and knowledge to which, as a cradle catholic i have had limited access.

thank you for sharing.

Awww…

You are welcome. Participating in this thread has helped clarify why I like the RCC as much as I do. It’s such a blessing to put it into words and have it resonate with people.

 

[Kal2012]

I tend to agree. Cal has been given some good answers…Perhaps it is time for him to mull it over a bit…

I agree. It seems like all we’ve been doing is rehashing information lately.

I thought this would be more of a dialogue, not a debate.

For years, I was “intrigued by Catholicism, but couldn’t convert for many reasons” so I get where OP’s coming from with that statement. Years ago, I would have made many of the same arguments. It’s kind of freaky realizing that.

My big hang-up was communion and why I couldn’t participate as a practicing protestant. I was highly offended because I couldn’t believe that “some church” would tell me that I couldn’t participate, even though I loved Jesus 1000%. I was the first time my then-boyfriend told me that I couldn’t have communion at his church. Me? Not have communion? At church? It was just unthinkable! I was offended. I think we went to church together one or two more times after that, but I wasn’t going to go to a church where I couldn’t participate and everything was just not what I was used to.

10 + years later, I get it. I had to fight and wrestle with it, but here I am. Part of having faith is leaping and trusting that you are heading in the right direction. For me, the best part of mass is when the priest sings the 4 words, ‘the mystery of faith’, because I trust in the mystery and faith. I trust that I’m not going to have all the answers, but that I’m going to do the best I can with the information I have.

 

[JuantheTuba]

…its spurious Biblical basis…

Calilobo, I’m going to propose to you something very radical to you, I know it will be very hard to wrap your head around it, but it will help you to understand why the Church does what it does.

I propose that you re-evaluate and shift your understanding of what constitutes the ultimate source of Christian worship and teaching. Simply put I propse that you realize that:

**-“Bible =/= Christianity”

-Catholicism isn’t a “bible only” institution.

-The Church does not seek or pretend to HAVE to validate everything it does solely on Holy Scripture.**

I know it’s hard to reconcile that fact, even many Catholics don’t seem to realize that, because for the past 500 or so years there have been several communities that espouse that belief very loudly, especially here in the U.S. which has been a historically Protestant majority country, the idea of being Christian means “Bible only, all of Jesus teachings are only in the Bible, etc.” is very ingrained into our subconscious that it’s hard to shake off.

If you keep wanting that every teaching and doctrine of the Church require some “biblical basis” you will be sorely dissappointed nor shoud it have to, Holy Scripture is there to edify and support, but not to validate the actions of the Church.

If the Church recorded in Scripture doesn’t seem to match up to the Church to today, then I ask, the Church as a living, breathing institution, would you really expect that after 2 millenia, over a billion souls baptized, that the same framework that sustain the original Apostles still work? You wouldn’t clothe and feed an adult the same way you feed or clothe a baby would you?

 

[eddie_too]

based solely on calilobo’s posts to date, i infer that for calilobo christianity is magical and the words “i believe in Jesus Christ as may Lord and Savior” are a magical incantation that effectively relieves those who speak these magic word, this magical incantation and mean them are relieved from all responsibility for the consequences of what the speaker thinks, says and does.

the fact that Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law is meaningless in calilobo’s concept of christianity. all law is meaningless in calilobo’s concept of christianity. in calilobo’s concept of christianity faith is magical.

the magical incantation is the sum total of calilobo’s understanding of christianity and its Founder.

so, it is perfectly reasonable to calilobo that there is no need of agreement among christians beyond believing in the magical words. christians do not even need to agree that the words have a specific meaning. they are magical and professing them creates a magical result that allows those who profess them to live their lives in complete ignorance of what anyone else who has professed them has ever said or done.

my above analysis, based solely on what calilobo has posted here, is why calilobo has been unable to engage any of us in a fruitful (fruitful for him or us) dialogue.

of course, calilobo’s attacks on the RCC indicate that he does not really believe that everything else is meaningless. calilobo seems desperate to persuade us that what we believe is wrong. that desperation flies in the face of his other and repeated assertions that history, the application of reason and logic to the christian beliefs that are in the world, the lives of canonized saints and the huge number of protestant christian sects are meaningless in understanding Sacred Scripture.

calilobo has made it quite clear that he accepts that one person’s intepretation of Sacared Scripture is as good as another’s interpretation. whatever Sacred Scripture means to the individual is all that is important so long as everyone agrees that they must affirm and believe in their hearts the magic words.

of course, calilobo does not see the inherent contradiction between his words and his actions. he comes here to persuade us that all of the doctrines and understanding that we have received from previous generations of christians are wrong while simultaneously ignoring that we all do affirm that we believe that Jesus is our Lord and Savior.

still our believing that Jesus is our Lord and Savior is not enough for calilobo, we must also reject all other beliefs as does calilobo.

so on the one hand calilobo writes that only the magical words are important and on the other hand calilobo creates another requirement that even though we speak and affirm the magic words we must also reject any other possible guidance almighty God has given mankind.

sadly, calilobo does not see this inherent contradiction in his (calilobo’s) gospel.

i have no doubt calilobo is a sincere believer in Jesus as his Lord and savior despite his ignorance and confusion. and since only almighty God can judge the heart of man, his ignorance and confusion may be sufficiently profound as to excuse the consequences of the actions and words they create in the world, especially the effect those actions and words may have on the souls of those who observe, hear and read them. none of us can say what God’s final judgment will be on calilobo. i personally believe it will be merciful.

while i still believe calilobo was deceptive in his initial post, i do not doubt that he genuinely believes that Jesus is his Lord and Savior.

having said all of the above, there is no doubt in my mind that calilobo’s sincerely held beleifs are dangerous to the salvation of souls and should be countered at every opportunity. relying on ignorance and confusion for salvation is the antithesis of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

the words calilobo treats as a magical incantation are only the beginning of the transformation Jesus desires for the hearts of men. they are not the endgame of christianity.

 

[eddie_too]

of course, some amount of ignorance and confusion lies at the heart of every protestant sect.

i read somewhere that bishop fulton sheen once commented that is no one who hates the catholic church but there are many who hate what they think is the catholic church.

 

[nishkalank]

If the arguments and discussions bring out some understanding it is good. Here the protestant’s repeated accusations have been clarified but with no results. May the doubtmaster examine the clarification one by one and come up.

Nishkalank

 

[Matilda_Bennett]

This thread is now closed. Thank you to all who participated.