Wow. Lots of responses. And quick too. I tried to type and they kept coming.
I’m not proposing that I am a Church scholar. Just sharing my beliefs here too.
The difference being that the Catholic Church teaches that those with Original Sin are still capable of good but solely through Common Grace provided by God to everyone and not through intrinsic good, whereas the Calvinist would say that every act by someone who is not a born again Christian is automatically evil even if it’s saving someone’s life or charitable or something.
It is important to note, I believe, the difference between nice and good. A “good” act would be one that gives glory to God. A “nice” act is, just that, nice and is an end unto itself.
Semp,
I wouldn’t say you’re arguing apples an oranges, but rather you’re arguing whether an orange is either round or orange. It’s both.
Likewise, we are inherently good with respect to our being, for we are a being created by God. But we are inherently corrupted with respect to our nature, due to Adam.
Satan, too, is inherently good with respect to his being, because he was made by God. If you deny that, then you must deny that God makes only good things. But he is totally evil in a moral sense.
See, that’s where you are in COMPLETE contradiction to the bible. Our sin is not an extra coating or confined to a metaphysical ideal of morality. Our sin corrupts our entirety. That is why St. Paul talks about putting off the old self. He doesn’t say, “clean up the old self”. He says, “I am crucified with Christ”.
Satan is not inherently good. Not in any way. He was created good but his action completely changed the substance of his being. Deep down inside Satan isn’t a good guy. It’s not a matter of him continuing to choose to do wrong. His choice, the initial turning from God, substantially changed him.
I don’t know how people can not see this.
Humans, created to be less than the angels in every respect, are not presented with irrevocable choices. When we do make a wrong choice, as in the case of sin, we are wounded, but able to be healed by the Blood of Christ. We are also affected by the inherited Original Sin of Adam and Eve, which weakens our will and makes us tend to sin.
I would have to completely disagree with you in every single sense of the word “disagree”. We are not created less than Angels. Through Jesus, our authority extends far beyond mere angels. In Jesus name, we speak with the authority of all heaven. Not even angels have the authority to cast out demons. We are the highest of all God’s creation. Angels marvel at us. It’s not supposed to be the other way round.
When we are healed, however, we are really, truly healed. It is as if the sin had never happened - we are fresh and new. We are not like a dungheap covered with snow as the Lutherans believe. We are made good again - there is no dung left. It is our human weakness that leads us to sin again and again, but we have access to the Sacraments for healing again and again also.
To sum up, we and the angels are created good. Free will wounded some angels permanently and confirmed others in good permanently. Free will exercised by our first parents resulted in Original sin which wounds us all and makes us susceptible to personal sins. The Blood of Christ is able to heal every repented human sin, so we can be good again, but still weakened by Original Sin, with the possiblility of more personal sins.
Absolute bottom line: Good but wounded.
Betsy
See heres the problem. It’s “Worth before worth”. The crux of the issue is this - Paul states, and accurately quotes from the old testament, in Romans that “There is none righteous”, “There is none that understands”, that we have become “altogether unprofitable” (that is our cost far outweighs our worth) and, the nail in the coffin, “not one does good”.
See, the issue lies in what happens when people believe that they are “intrinsicly good” - a good person who has a pesky problem of original sin… We look at the cross and don’t see it as a reflection of God’s amazing grace but as a reflection of our inherent goodness - what else could God possibly do but save us? Why wouldn’t he? I’m a good person on the inside.
The bible talks about us being in a state of complete and utter disrepair. We aren’t fixable. That’s the problem. Jesus didn’t come to “fix us”. He came to make us completely anew.
Baptism unites us in his death and ressurection. There’s a good reason that the church accepts new believers particularly during Easter.
I’m not saying that we are all rotten forever. I’m saying the opposite. I’m saying before accepting Jesus, whether as a baby (faith expressed by parents) or as an adult (faith expressed by my self), we were in an irrepairable state of brokeness WHICH through the miracle of REBIRTH in Christ - is restored.
Some people call me naive because I tend to think that deep inside, we’re all good. But I really do believe that - except for some doubting moments. Somehow I think if we knew everything about a person, we could understand everybody. I think I could forgive everybody.
(only with myself I have problems sometimes.)
Kathrin
I don’t think it’s naive. I don’t think it’s right though either. I believe people have confused sentimentality and romanticism with what is legal concept to God.
