Introduction to the East

[PrayforMallory]

This is my first time posting in the Eastern Catholicism section of the forum. I’m completely ignorant of EC, so please cut me a break if I say something untoward or ignorant, because I am very ignorant of all of this.

For the past year or so, we’ve considered adopting an Ethiopian child. We’re going to do it, and the only thing delaying the process is paying the fees. My wife sees it as a merit for salvation, and I’d like to have a son.

Well, I looked at the Ethiopian culture, and began to study it, and I was very interested, especially in their ancient and venerable Church. I know the Ethiopian Orthodox are not in communion with Rome, or with the Eastern Orthodox. However, I found out about the Ethiopian Catholic Church, and became intrigued. I especially think their iconography is beautiful.

Then I started going to the traditional Latin Mass, and became even more interested in all the ancient liturgies. So basically, I want to go at least once in my life to as many of the different Catholic rites as possible. There is a Byzantine Liturgy in this Archdiocese, and they have a Saturday evening liturgy. I go to an ICKSP oratory, and they don’t have Saturday evening Masses. I was hoping maybe you guys could answer a few of my questions:

1. Can a Western Catholic attend an Eastern Catholic Liturgy? Can he attend often (like every Saturday?).
2. Are the Eastern Liturgies traditional? Do they have some of the same problems traditional Latin Catholics struggle with in the mainstream Church?
3. If we go, should my wife wear a mantilla or some other kind of head-covering? Is this worn in Eastern Liturgies?
4. Are the Eastern Liturgies “versus populum?”
5. How does one prepare for attending one? I’ve heard that the fast rules are different.
6. Are there debates about “modernism” like in the Latin Rite?

I realize there are a number of different Eastern Churches. I was hoping each person could respond in regards to his or her particular rite.

Hope I said everything correctly. I love all forms of ancient Christianity, descended from the apostles.

 

[wynd]

1. Can a Western Catholic attend an Eastern Catholic Liturgy? Can he attend often (like every Saturday?)

Yes, you may attend as often as you want.

1. Are the Eastern Liturgies traditional? Do they have some of the same problems traditional Latin Catholics struggle with in the mainstream Church?

Most are very traditional (according to the Eastern tradition, meaning there is a good chance that the liturgy will be in English because the tradition of the East is to use the vernacular, among other things). Some have recently come up with a “revised Divine Liturgy” which has inclusive language and revised music.

1. If we go, should my wife wear a mantilla or some other kind of head-covering? Is this worn in Eastern Liturgies?

Some parishes do and some don’t. If it makes her feel more comfortable, she can wear it and probably not stand out.

1. Are the Eastern Liturgies “versus populum?”

No. There are moments when the priest turns to face the congregation to bless them or comes out to read the Gospel, but it is largely facing the altar.

1. How does one prepare for attending one? I’ve heard that the fast rules are different.

Since you are a member of the Latin church, the Eastern rules canonically don’t apply to you, so your minimum fast is one hour. The traditional Eastern communion fast is the same thing as the traditional Latin – no food or drink from midnight unless medically necessary. The other Eastern fasting rules are much more strict than the Latin and can be found here.

The Eastern Catholic churches are descended from the Orthodox churches, so this is a link to Orthodox fasting practices. I don’t know if the EC fasting rules have been modified over time.

1. Are there debates about “modernism” like in the Latin Rite?

As I mentioned, there are some Byzantine churches which have implemented a revised Divine Liturgy which has tinges of modernism. But I don’t think that is the norm.

Note: I’ve only ever attended Byzantine-rite churches. Someone else would have to fill you in on Ethiopian or other Oriental rites.

 

[jimmy]

I am a Maronite.

Yes, you can attend a Maronite parish and recieve the Eucharist. The main thing about communion between the various churches is that we can recieve communion together.

Yes, they are very traditional. Not in the sense that a SSPX person or some ultra conservative Latins are. We have our own traditions which we follow. These traditions have the fathers as their source.

Your wife can where a mantilla if she likes. It is not that common at my parish though.

The Maronites are ad populum. The priest faces the people during the liturgy. This is a sad development because traditionally the priest should face east. But through the contact with the west the Maronites have taken on a lot of western ideas.

Traditionally fasting is more strict. Traditionally Maronites fast and abstain on all wednesdays and fridays of the year(except for a few exceptions). All days of Lent are days of abstinence and monday through friday are days of fasting. Twelve days before Christmas are days of abstinence. I think seven days for the feast of the dormition and three days for the feast of saints Peter and Paul. Fasting is not eating anything before noon. Abstinence is not eating any meat, fish, or meat products like eggs and milk. Abstinence also includes things like oil and wine as well.

But that is the traditional fast. Again through contact with the west the Maronites have assumed the western concept of fasting. So now you have priests saying you have to fast on all fridays of Lent. The traditional fast has been largely abandoned. Once in a while you might see it mentioned by the bishops because they might recommend it.

 

[Patchunky]

Some parishes do and some don’t. If it makes her feel more comfortable, she can wear it and probably not stand out.

Actually, the opposite is true.

When we see a woman wearing a mantilla, we usually sigh and say OH, LORD, here we go again:banghead:

The only women who wear mantillas in the our churches are “refugees” from Novus Ordo or SSPX’ers looking for what they thing is a TLM in our church.

They end up creating so many problems…:byzsoc:

 

[PrayforMallory]

Actually, the opposite is true.

When we see a woman wearing a mantilla, we usually sigh and say OH, LORD, here we go again:banghead:

The only women who wear mantillas in the our churches are “refugees” from Novus Ordo or SSPX’ers looking for what they thing is a TLM in our church.

They end up creating so many problems…:byzsoc:

Cool, well, I’'ll pretty much avoid whatever you are then.

To those who replied, thanks!

 

[wynd]

Actually, the opposite is true.

When we see a woman wearing a mantilla, we usually sigh and say OH, LORD, here we go again:banghead:

The only women who wear mantillas in the our churches are “refugees” from Novus Ordo or SSPX’ers looking for what they thing is a TLM in our church.

They end up creating so many problems…:byzsoc:

Like I said, it depends on the parish.

 

[JuanCarlos]

I believe the only Ethiopian Catholic Church in the United States is in Washington DC.

They have a lot of interesting customs- I have heard that all Ethiopian Orthodox boys are ordained subdeacons, the Liturgy is traditionally said with 7 priests, and they follow many (all?) of the Kosher laws of the Old Testament.

 

[PrayforMallory]

I believe the only Ethiopian Catholic Church in the United States is in Washington DC.

They have a lot of interesting customs- I have heard that all Ethiopian Orthodox boys are ordained subdeacons, the Liturgy is traditionally said with 7 priests, and they follow many (all?) of the Kosher laws of the Old Testament.

Yeah I was reading about that. It sounds really awesome.

Ironically they have some elements that seem to be so grating in the West, like drums and liturgical dance, yet somehow it seems so reverent, at least in my opinion. Maybe because those cultural traditions are authentic and traditional?
I really wish I could go to DC and see that.

 

[wynd]

Yeah I was reading about that. It sounds really awesome.

Ironically they have some elements that seem to be so grating in the West, like drums and liturgical dance, yet somehow it seems so reverent, at least in my opinion. Maybe because those cultural traditions are authentic and traditional?
I really wish I could go to DC and see that.

Here is a video: youtube.com/watch?v=cRsF8_sxDhE

Much different from Western liturgical dance.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Here is a video: youtube.com/watch?v=cRsF8_sxDhE

Much different from Western liturgical dance.

This video is awesome. Thanks.

 

[Harpazo]

I have actually heard from someone on ByzCath say that there are plans of establishing an Ethiopian Catholic Eparchy in the US in the not too distant future. There are a good number of parishes and missions in the US, which I think is wonderful.

If I had the resources and time, I’d try to start missions everywhere for Eastern Catholics.

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

 

[Patchunky]

Cool, well, I’'ll pretty much avoid whatever you are then.

To those who replied, thanks!

Thanks:thumbsup:

Being called spawn of Satan and a Devil Worshipper because you don’t kneel for the Consecration and don’t use Latin for the Divine Liturgy gets REALLY old after you’ve heard it 3 or 4 times…

 

[JuanCarlos]

Thanks:thumbsup:

Being called spawn of Satan and a Devil Worshipper because you don’t kneel for the Consecration and don’t use Latin for the Divine Liturgy gets REALLY old after you’ve heard it 3 or 4 times…

Kneeling I can fathom, but expecting to see Latin for a Divine Liturgy is pretty ignorant.

 

[kitkatty]

Thanks:thumbsup:

Being called spawn of Satan and a Devil Worshipper because you don’t kneel for the Consecration and don’t use Latin for the Divine Liturgy gets REALLY old after you’ve heard it 3 or 4 times…

So everyone who shows up wearing a mantilla is to be viewed as a sign of criticism of Eastern Traditions? What hapopened to welcoming people to parishes?

 

[Harpazo]

So everyone who shows up wearing a mantilla is to be viewed as a sign of criticism of Eastern Traditions? What hapopened to welcoming people to parishes?

I can’t speak on Patchunky’s behalf, but in my parish (Maronite) whenever someone wearing a mantilla comes, it is generally a disgruntled Latin Catholic. They come and bring other disgruntled Latins, which is fine. However, they bring their Latin Traditions and try to impose them on the rest of the parish. This is just what I have noticed at my parish.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with Latin Traditions. The only thing I don’t like is when they come to impose their traditions on another tradition because they think theirs is superior.

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

 

[ronyodish]

The Maronites are ad populum. The priest faces the people during the liturgy. This is a sad development because traditionally the priest should face east. But through the contact with the west the Maronites have taken on a lot of western ideas.

jimmy,

Do you know if there is any current effort in the Maronite eparchies of the US on restoring the traditional “ad orientem” way of praying?

In the Chaldean eparchy of the Western US, I remember when Bishop Mar Sarhad came in to celebrate the liturgy, and the items on the altar was prepared by the nuns in the “ad populum” way, and so right in the beginning of the liturgy, the bishop began to move around the items on the altar in order to reposition them towards the cross/east.

I noticed that when he continued to pray, he continued facing the east, and I was so ecstatic, because I was hoping this would happen for a while, that we would get a bishop who would restore the tradition of facing East. This happened a few years ago, and since then, this practice and some other practices (eg. veil) were restored in that eparchy.

It must have been a real surprise to many of the sub-deacons and laity on that day to see their bishop celebrating differently than what they became accustomed to, the ad populum, that was introduced among the Chaldeans shortly after Vatican II.

I hope you Maronites will restore this ancient way of praying towards the East.

God bless,

Rony

 

[PrayforMallory]

Thanks:thumbsup:

Being called spawn of Satan and a Devil Worshipper because you don’t kneel for the Consecration and don’t use Latin for the Divine Liturgy gets REALLY old after you’ve heard it 3 or 4 times…

Did you not read what I posted earlier about the Ethiopian Liturgies?

It’s pretty clear I’m aware that they are two different traditions.

When did I say that I was expecting Latin (in a Byzantine Parish no less) or anything about kneeling for the consecration (aren’t Byzantine Parishes pewless?).

You have me confused with someone else. Either that, or you just don’t want people to check it out.

I was just trying to see what it was all about. Well, now I know.

 

[PrayforMallory]

So everyone who shows up wearing a mantilla is to be viewed as a sign of criticism of Eastern Traditions? What hapopened to welcoming people to parishes?

I guess so. Don’t the EO wear some kinda head covering? I was just wondering if that carried over into EC.

 

[PrayforMallory]

I can’t speak on Patchunky’s behalf, but in my parish (Maronite) whenever someone wearing a mantilla comes, it is generally a disgruntled Latin Catholic. They come and bring other disgruntled Latins, which is fine. However, they bring their Latin Traditions and try to impose them on the rest of the parish. This is just what I have noticed at my parish.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with Latin Traditions. The only thing I don’t like is when they come to impose their traditions on another tradition because they think theirs is superior.

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

I can understand the frustration. That, however, was not what I was looking to do, knowing that it is venerable, distinct Rite.

Traditional Latin Catholics going to Eastern Parishes is not going to be a problem in a few years. It’s not a problem for me now. I’m not on here asking questions about it so I can get away from the Novus Ordo. I haven’t been to a Sunday Novus Ordo in a while.

I was just interested in, you know, learning about it.

If a woman wearing a harmless mantilla causes so much consternation, God forbid that a hardcore atheist walk in.

 

[Harpazo]

I can understand the frustration. That, however, was not what I was looking to do, knowing that it is venerable, distinct Rite.

Traditional Latin Catholics going to Eastern Parishes is not going to be a problem in a few years. It’s not a problem for me now. I’m not on here asking questions about it so I can get away from the Novus Ordo. I haven’t been to a Sunday Novus Ordo in a while.

I was just interested in, you know, learning about it.

If a woman wearing a harmless mantilla causes so much consternation, God forbid that a hardcore atheist walk in.

Oh I know that you weren’t looking to stir up trouble. Your intentions are very good from what I have read. Patchunky was expressing his consternation to it, and I guess it caused problems for him in the past. I think it is a beautiful thing for a woman to have her head covered.

I’m not sure what it is called, but there is a tradition of it being used in some of the Byzantine Churches. It’s a head covering, almost like a scarf, if I’m not mistaken. It’s a very venerable tradition that should return.

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew