Introduction to the East

[PrayforMallory]

Oh I know that you weren’t looking to stir up trouble. Your intentions are very good from what I have read. Patchunky was expressing his consternation to it, and I guess it caused problems for him in the past. I think it is a beautiful thing for a woman to have her head covered.

I’m not sure what it is called, but there is a tradition of it being used in some of the Byzantine Churches. It’s a head covering, almost like a scarf, if I’m not mistaken. It’s a very venerable tradition that should return.

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

From what I’ve seen and read of the Byzantine Rite, it looks awesome.

Ironically, one thing that impressed me about the videos I’ve seen is the integrity of the Liturgy and practices like the fasts.

Believe me, I am the exact opposite of someone who would want to Latinize the Eastern Liturgies. I was also impressed by how much the Eastern Catholics seemed to reject modernism.

I can see how it would be frustrating. But people who go to Eastern Parishes seeking the TLM should just go to the TLM, provided they have the opportunity.

Music and Chant are very important to me, and I love the Eastern Chant that I’ve heard.

Just out of curiosity, do some Byzantine Parishes celebrate the Liturgy in Greek?

 

[Harpazo]

From what I’ve seen and read of the Byzantine Rite, it looks awesome.

Ironically, one thing that impressed me about the videos I’ve seen is the integrity of the Liturgy and practices like the fasts.

Believe me, I am the exact opposite of someone who would want to Latinize the Eastern Liturgies. I was also impressed by how much the Eastern Catholics seemed to reject modernism.

I can see how it would be frustrating. But people who go to Eastern Parishes seeking the TLM should just go to the TLM, provided they have the opportunity.

Music and Chant are very important to me, and I love the Eastern Chant that I’ve heard.

Just out of curiosity, do some Byzantine Parishes celebrate the Liturgy in Greek?

To my knowledge they are celebrated in the vernacular in most places. Some Byzantine Churches such as the Melkites, Italo-Greek and the Greek Byzantine Churches use Greek in some parts of the liturgy. Others will use the language from which their Church originated. For example the Russian Catholics will use Russian or Old Slavonic and the Ukrainians will use Ukrainian and so on.

The Byzantine tradition is only a part of the beauty in the Christian East. Don’t forget to look into the Coptic, Antiochene and other liturgical traditions in the Holy Catholic Church.

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

 

[Patchunky]

So everyone who shows up wearing a mantilla is to be viewed as a sign of criticism of Eastern Traditions? What hapopened to welcoming people to parishes?

Basically, YES!

It seems that the only ones who wear mantillas in my church are SSPX’ers or TLM refugees or they’re channeling Jackie Kennedy

The TLM refugees and SSPX’ers don’t know what they’re looking for and think they’re gonna find a pre-Vatican II Mass in our church. They get REALLY upset, on occasion to the point where we’ve had to threaten to call the authorities, when we don’t use Latin or English in our Divine Services; when we don’t kneel for the Consecration and ask them not to kneel as well and even when we tell them NOT to kneel to receive the Holy Eucharist.

I don’t know what part of this is our church, kindly respect our customs and traditions or please leave they don’t understand.

THANK GOD, the latest group of “crazies” who follow that Mary Ellen Lukas character have left. We can start our Divine Services on time and not have to worry about having 10 people trying to have 20 minute confessions when we’re ringing the bells to start the Divine Liturgy.

Oh, BTW, yes, we do welcome everyone with open arms. Every year we host several classes of Confirmation students when they attend Divine Liturgy. We also host several religious education classses from local Catholic high schools when they’re studying about the different Rites of the Church.

We also have an active community outreach program hosting several groups in our hall each week.

We also have a Q&A during our annual Food Festivals and we do get many visitors from these Q&A’s.

Here is our parish website www.patronagechurch.com

 

[Patchunky]

Needless to say, I’m not going to go if the Eastern Rite is full of *******s. I wasn’t looking to join that parish anyway, since I have a traditional Roman Rite parish that I feel at home at.

I was just trying to see what it was all about. Well, now I know.

Thank you once again

We REALLY don’t want more any *******s in our church either

 

[Hesychios]

I can’t speak on Patchunky’s behalf, but in my parish (Maronite) whenever someone wearing a mantilla comes, it is generally a disgruntled Latin Catholic. They come and bring other disgruntled Latins, which is fine. However, they bring their Latin Traditions and try to impose them on the rest of the parish. This is just what I have noticed at my parish.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with Latin Traditions. The only thing I don’t like is when they come to impose their traditions on another tradition because they think theirs is superior.

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

I am in complete agreement with you here. Every last word (except that I was a Ruthenian). My experiences were often the same.

I think it is striking how this one seemingly insignificant garment can evince a similar reaction in so many places.

 

[Patchunky]

I am in complete agreement with you here. Every last word (except that I was a Ruthenian). My experiences were often the same.

I think it is striking how this one seemingly insignificant garment can evince a similar reaction in so many places.

We’ve had families come with 3-yr girls who had mantillas “attached” to their heads. Ever watch a 3-yr old who didn’t want to wear a mantilla? It ain’t pretty…

Oh, this was one of the family’s that told us we were Satan’s Spawn and the Anti-Christ because we didn’t kneel ( and it was Paska yet) and didn’t use Latin

Why is it that the TLM’s and the SSPX’ers all want to wear the mantilla? It doesn’t make them any holier (although it sounds they think it does). Don’t they know that only married women in certain Hispanic cultures wear the mantilla and then only at certain times and church isn’t one of them?

 

[PrayforMallory]

Oh, this was one of the family’s that told us we were Satan’s Spawn and the Anti-Christ because we didn’t kneel ( and it was Paska yet) and didn’t use Latin

Maybe because of your bad attitude?

All of the criticisms and hatred you just spewed at me. They don’t apply. I was discussing approaching the East on its own terms, interested in seeing what it was all about.

You evidently can’t stand the mantilla even in the Latin Rite. BTW, I don’t wear one, as I’m not a woman.

Why would you use Latin in the BYZANTINE RITE? I’m having a hard time grasping what your problem with me is. Did you not hear me praise the Ge’ez Rite?

Sheesh!

 

[PrayforMallory]

Thank you once again

We REALLY don’t want more any *******s in our church either

You must not want any real men in there either, if a 110 lb woman in a mantilla can cause so much consternation. What if a hardcore fundamentalist Muslim came in? No wonder Constantinople fell.

I was actually looking to approach the East on its own terms, though. Not to get away from the Novus Ordo. I could go to Church every day for the rest of my life and never go to a Novus Ordo. It seemed really interesting, from both an academic and spiritual point of view. It also seems really beautiful and ancient. Thanks for ruining this thread! The devil himself couldn’t have done a better job!

 

[Hesychios]

Did these Latin Catholics scar you this badly? I mean, we sacked Constantinople what, several centuries ago?

Sheesh!

Hmmm! :coffeeread:

 

[JuanCarlos]

We’ve had families come with 3-yr girls who had mantillas “attached” to their heads. Ever watch a 3-yr old who didn’t want to wear a mantilla? It ain’t pretty…

Oh, this was one of the family’s that told us we were Satan’s Spawn and the Anti-Christ because we didn’t kneel ( and it was Paska yet) and didn’t use Latin

Why is it that the TLM’s and the SSPX’ers all want to wear the mantilla? It doesn’t make them any holier (although it sounds they think it does). Don’t they know that only married women in certain Hispanic cultures wear the mantilla and then only at certain times and church isn’t one of them?

Until the 1980’s it was a matter of Canon Law that all Latin-Rite females had to wear a head-covering in Church. And in the Latin Rite it is usually considered irreverent at best not to kneel for the consecration.

Given that you can understand why a Traditional Latin-Riter would be alarmed by lack of kneeling if they didn’t know better- it seems almost NO. But its not.

 

[jimmy]

jimmy,

Do you know if there is any current effort in the Maronite eparchies of the US on restoring the traditional “ad orientem” way of praying?

Rony

Hey, Rony. What’s up?

As far as I know there is no attempt to restore ad orientem to the liturgy.

How much longer are you going to be in the area Rony? You should come to the Maronite liturgy.

 

[ronyodish]

Hey, Rony. What’s up?

Hey Jimmy, I’m just busy with a paper for next week, the last week of class.

As far as I know there is no attempt to restore ad orientem to the liturgy.

I see. Perhaps, the Maronite bishops are taking things very slowly for pastoral reasons. The Congregation for the Eastern Churches did actually address this issue of prayer facing the East in article 107 by concluding:

---

Such practice, threatened in numerous Eastern Catholic Churches by a new and recent Latin influence, is thus of profound value and should be safeguarded as truly coherent with the Eastern liturgical spirituality.​

It will be restored, it’s just a matter of time.

How much longer are you going to be in the area Rony? You should come to the Maronite liturgy.

For about 10 days, and then will visit San Diego for a month, and come back in mid August. I actually emailed Joe yesterday telling him that not this Sunday but next Sunday, I may come to the Maronite parish. I have a couple of Latin Catholic class friends who expressed a casual interest in attending a Maronite Divine Liturgy, and so I might bring them along. I’m not sure yet, but will let you know soon.

God bless,

Rony

 

[PrayforMallory]

We’ve had families come with 3-yr girls who had mantillas “attached” to their heads. Ever watch a 3-yr old who didn’t want to wear a mantilla? It ain’t pretty…

Oh, this was one of the family’s that told us we were Satan’s Spawn and the Anti-Christ because we didn’t kneel ( and it was Paska yet) and didn’t use Latin

Why is it that the TLM’s and the SSPX’ers all want to wear the mantilla? It doesn’t make them any holier (although it sounds they think it does). Don’t they know that only married women in certain Hispanic cultures wear the mantilla and then only at certain times and church isn’t one of them?

I don’t know. My five-year old always wants to wear hers.

As for why they wear them, I think it has something to do with humility before the Blessed Sacrament.

Why so bitter? Why not read my posts where it’s evident and clear that Eastern Catholic culture, liturgy, and devotions are a new interest of mine, and that I’m approaching them on their own terms, and that it’s clear that I’m not looking for a TLM?

Why the hostility? BTW, not every woman at a TLM wears a mantilla.

 

[Patchunky]

I don’t know. My five-year old always wants to wear hers.

As for why they wear them, I think it has something to do with humility before the Blessed Sacrament.

Why so bitter? Why not read my posts where it’s evident and clear that Eastern Catholic culture, liturgy, and devotions are a new interest of mine, and that I’m approaching them on their own terms, and that it’s clear that I’m not looking for a TLM?

Why the hostility? BTW, not every woman at a TLM wears a mantilla.

Who’s bitter? Not me… I’m just telling it like it is. We are tired of TLM’s & SSPX’ers coming into our churches and not respecting our customs and traditions. If you can’t respect our customs and traditions then please don’t come, go bother somebody else…

 

[Patchunky]

As for why they wear them, I think it has something to do with humility before the Blessed Sacrament.

Actually, a mantilla is traditionally worn by women in Spain and Portugal and to a limited extent Mexico and Italy. They are worn with elaborate hair combs and depending on they color, style and elaborateness of the combs, determines the wearer’s station within the community. You can tell at a glance who is married, widowed and who was eligible for marriage.

Women in North America always wore hats or headscarves tied under the chin until they saw a photo of Jackie Kennedy greeting the Holy Father and they decided to copy her.

It has NOTHING to do with humility before the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[Aramis]

When did I say that I was expecting Latin (in a Byzantine Parish no less) or anything about kneeling for the consecration (aren’t Byzantine Parishes pewless?).

No, not all. Every Ruthenian parish I’ve been to has pews or chairs. Standing throughout the DL is allowed, but not required. Kneeling is requisite only in certain services other than the DL; the consecration is standing, with bowing suggested at the words of institution, and during the invocation of the holy spirit (… Send down your holy spirit, changing them…).

Some other byzantines use chairs, or pews, or “leaning rails” while others, especially the non-catholic Byzantines of the Canonical Orthodox, often have nothing in the sanctuary at all save the candlestands and tetrapod.

 

[Aramis]

I guess so. Don’t the EO wear some kinda head covering? I was just wondering if that carried over into EC.

Rev. Fr. Steve Gross, OFM, wears a monastic Klobuk when vested/serving as a Byzantine. (He’s Biritual Roman-Byzantine, a monastic, and serves as a relief priest for two byzantine eparchies IIRC, including Van Nuys.)

 

[Patchunky]

Rev. Fr. Steve Gross, OFM, wears a monastic Klobuk when vested/serving as a Byzantine. (He’s Biritual Roman-Byzantine, a monastic, and serves as a relief priest for two byzantine eparchies IIRC, including Van Nuys.)

The OP means women wearing mantillas, not the clergy…

 

[Aramis]

The OP means women wearing mantillas, not the clergy…

The OCA clergy are about the only one I see universally wearing veils…