Invalid Baptisms Challenge- "We Baptize"

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YouTube has a ton of recorded Baptisms. Spoiler- some are valid but many are not. Here’s one. According to the recent CDF pronouncement, this baptism would be invalid. I feel like this is going to be a much bigger deal in the coming months than anyone anticipated.

What do you think? Can you find any others?

Watch and listen to the words.

 
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YouTube has a ton of recorded Baptisms. Spoiler- some are valid but many are not. Here’s one. According to the recent CDF pronouncement, this baptism would be invalid. I feel like this is going to be a much bigger deal in the coming months than anyone anticipated.

What do you think? Can you find any others?

Watch and listen to the words.
We now baptise him/her …
 
Why are you worried about what other churches do at baptism? You know the Catholic Church will never change the rite of baptism.
 
I worked with RCIA for years. For a baptism to be valid it must have the proper form & matter. The matter is water and the form is in the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit. The Church has determined which Christian denominations have a valid baptism, we as the laity have no business questioning whether a denomination’s baptism is valid or not.

If you are concerned about “we baptize” or “I baptize” I really don’t think it matters at all.
 
I suspect that the Church will be approaching the matter in a fashion similar to marriage: it is presumed valid until shown to not be valid.

I also suspect that there are a huge number of people who will never know that the issue ever cam up with the Vatican, and as most people coming through RCIA are adults and very likely were baptized as babies or children with no recollection of what the minister said (formula-wise).

My own experience as being a team member in RCIA for about 25 years is that the issue of baptism is around the matter of any ecclesial proof (including any family bible which notes the date of baptism) and has been, in my fairly limited experience (there are/were 17,000 +/- parishes in the US - I was involved with one of them) something we did not confront once per year as an average. , In fact, I can only recall a couple of conditional baptisms.

The Church has a fair amount of wisdom collected from the last 2,000 years or so. If the issue starts popping up, not with evidence, but with people getting their knickers in a knot while engaging in “what if” scenarios, then the Church may respond that absent evidence, the presumption stands; or it may suggest a limited number of conditional baptisms.

While there are an estimated 800 million Protestants world wide, the US has the largest estimated number, at around 160 million. From Catholic News Agency comes the following comment: "According to the CDF, the “deliberate modification of the sacramental formula” to use “we” instead of “I” appears to have been done “to express the participation of the family and of those present, and to avoid the idea of the concentration of a sacred power in the priest to the detriment of the parents and the community.”

On another thread, someone was implying that there may be a multitude of Protestants who are in this Catch-22. However, I suspect that if that is what is going on - that there are a multitude of people in RCIA upset about the ruling (and I have not read the document itself) I would point out that the CDF appears to have been answering a question not of baptisms done by Protestants, but by Catholics - it uses the term “priest” in the quote.

In other words, this appears to possibly be limited to evidence that one or some priests may have used an incorrect formula, and the matter, while serious, is a matter limited to Catholic baptisms.

And without reading the document, or someone inquiring of the CDF, there may be no reason to presume that all, most, many some or a few Protestant baptisms suffered from the same change of formula.

(continued)
 
(continued)

It would be helpful 1) to see the dubium submitted to the CDF; 2) to see the full c=answer form the CDF; and 3) if concerns are that this practice came from or spread to Protestant ministers, what the CDF proposes.

In the meanwhile, in the absence of evidence, we proceed as we have been proceeding.

Meaning, unless one wants to create all sorts of chaos, one should not be inquiring "Did your minister use the formula (stating some variation of it) for several reasons. 1) people most likely have zero recollection of the baptism, and 2) asking the question as noted has a tendency to implant suspicion where there is no reason to suspect, and it can put a candidate into a tailspin of our, not their making.

And yes, I watched the video. And yes, individual (minister?) used “we”. So that applies to that one minister, and unless and until it can be shown that this is more widespread than what was sent to the CDF (again, “priest”) and the CDF expands the issue beyond the Catholic Church, I suspect we will continue to presume validity until invalidity is shown.
 
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I worked with RCIA for years… If you are concerned about “we baptize” or “I baptize” I really don’t think it matters at all.
:woman_facepalming:t2:
My own experience as being a team member in RCIA for about 25 years… people getting their knickers in a knot while engaging in “what if” scenarios… unless one wants to create all sorts of chaos, one should not be inquiring…
:woman_facepalming:t2:

I wasn’t planning to chime in to this thread at all. The topic is too personal and emotionally exhausting to me and it’s plenty enough to have to be dealing with those actually in a position to help like my priests and bishop, seeking out random new individual cases where strangers may be in a similar position to me isn’t where I want to put my headspace. It’s one thing if they’re fellow CAF-ers but I foresee only discouragement if actively watching a bunch of YouTube videos of invalid baptisms of people who may never find out.

I think it’s safe to say that yes the phenomenon is more widespread than some might try to suggest. I won’t personally dive in right now to the hunt for specific cases beyond mine though.

So still think I’ll mostly stay off this particular thread.

But oh man. Looking at certain comments on this thread… and from people claiming to work in RCIA (or hopefully only have past, now-finished work in RCIA), too…

:woman_facepalming:t2:

Looking away again now.
 
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I think it’s safe to say that yes the phenomenon is more widespread than some might try to suggest.
I don’t think that matters. No pastor in his right mind is going to go looking for invalid baptisms because of this. People don’t need to go looking at their own baptism if the Church has already presumed that they’ve already been validly baptized.

As otjm said, and I would agree, the Church is probably just going to presume validity unless evidence to the contrary is presented.
 
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But oh man. Looking at certain comments on this thread…

:woman_facepalming:t2:

Looking away again now.
So you come to insult two long time CAF posters, both who have been involved with RCIA for years, although @otjm has much more experience than I, then say you’ll just stay away. This should have been one of those “if you can’t anything nice, don’t say anything at all” times.
 
No pastor in his right mind is going to go looking for invalid baptisms because of this. People don’t need to go looking at their own baptism if the Church has already presumed they’ve already been validly baptized.

As otjm said, and I would agree, the Church is probably just going to presume validity unless evidence to the contrary is presented.
This is your opinion, I suppose.

In my opinion, no pastor in his right mind — who also has a heart — would willfully overlook the reality that sacraments are either objectively valid or objectively invalid, and it makes a real difference in each individual’s life whether they’ve received invalidly or validly.

To suggest a sacrament objectively makes such a non-difference to the human soul, that it’s equally reasonable to just ‘presume’ the sacraments are validly received as to ensure the sacraments are validly received, is such an insane concept to me.

I would have to cease being Catholic if I believed that.

If the sacraments aren’t real, I’m out.

If the sacraments are real, I want them.

There is no middle ground of “the sacraments are real but don’t get your knickers in a knot about whether you receive them.”
 
This should have been one of those “if you can’t anything nice, don’t say anything at all” times.
Right back atcha.

I will not sit down and shut up about the objective spiritual abuse being perpetrated against those being denied surety of valid sacraments.

You can act offended from your armchair if you like.

I and others have had an actual offence committed against us by being denied surety of the sacraments and you spit in our face to suggest we shut up about it.

Not to mention when you, in particular, openly defy the CDF? You can’t throw your RCIA experience and longtime posting on a web forum in my face if you’re going to literally say something like:
If you are concerned about “we baptize” or “I baptize” I really don’t think it matters at all.
When the CDF has authoritatively stated that it matters and any baptism done with “we” language is invalid and must be newly performed in forma absoluta.
 
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If you are concerned about “we baptize” or “I baptize” I really don’t think it matters at all.
It’s not really about what you think matters, right? The Church has definitively said that “we baptize” is not a valid baptism . Are you not aware of the recent clarification from the CDF?
 
I would point out that the CDF appears to have been answering a question not of baptisms done by Protestants, but by Catholics - it uses the term “priest” in the quote.
There is no “protestant” baptism or “Catholic” baptism. There is only one baptism. If it lacks form, protestant or catholic, it is invalid.
 
When you read Fr. Hood’s testimony about this, he had nagging concerns about his baptism his whole life. It was the Holy Spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit is nudging you too on this. Follow Him.
 
Thanks Mark.

Yeah, I obeyed what I was told in RCIA the first time around. I submitted to the judgement of my priest that we should presume validity even though I had serious doubts.

Not this time. Not after this new concrete declaration from the CDF that correspond with an abuse my childhood denomination admits on paper to committing.

No more buckling on this front. As far as I’m concerned I’ve already proven my submission to the Church. Now the Church through the CDF has said something new and it corresponds with my circumstances and conscience and I’m not going to roll over this time even if the local process is difficult to work through. And even if past-RCIA-workers online tut at me about how tragic it is that I’m getting my “knickers in a knot” and how dare I question them.
 
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It’s disheartening to learn others are facing such an uphill battle just to get a baptism.
 
There is no “protestant” baptism or “Catholic” baptism. There is only one baptism. If it lacks form, protestant or catholic, it is invalid.
My own experience shows this. My infant ‘baptism’ was invalid and I got it rectified through the Church. It was through an ‘approved’ church. At this point I’m left with no other conclusion but that ecumenism is giving rise to a false sense of compassion.
 
And even if past-RCIA-workers online tut at me about how tragic it is that I’m getting my “knickers in a knot” and how dare I question them.
Trust me, too many RCIA teachers know very little about the faith they teach. Poor catechesis is always #1 issue identified why people leave the Church.
 
Trust me, too many RCIA teachers know very little about the faith they teach. Poor catechesis is always #1 issue identified why people leave the Church.
The RCIA program I went through was about as poor as they get. If I hadn’t read on my own I’m sure I would have wound up believing in enneagrams and that a host of issues that are forbidden by the Church are just fine and dandy.
 
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