Invalid Baptisms Challenge- "We Baptize"

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I do believe they would need convalidation/sanation, actually (if the invalidity of one of the spouses’ baptism is established), because disparity of cult is an impediment, but dispansation is possible for a natural marriage.
Another example: a married couple finds out that they are biological siblings, raised apart. Would that marriage be presumed valid or would they need convalidation (the answer is the latter).
 
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tuffsmurf said:
I do believe they would need convalidation/sanation, actually (if the invalidity of one of the spouses’ baptism is established), because disparity of cult is an impediment, but dispansation is possible for a natural marriage.
Another example: a married couple finds out that they are biological siblings, raised apart. Would that marriage be presumed valid or would they need convalidation (the answer is the latter).
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That kind of consanguinity cannot be dispensed or convalidated. The couple would need to divorce and find new spouses.
 
Biological siblings raises an issue of the civil legality of marriage in many jurisdictions, not just of Church law. It also raises a possibility of birth defects in the offspring. It’s a different kettle of fish. I doubt the Church would convalidate a marriage that is civilly illegal and for good reason (i.e. not injustice like anti-miscegnation laws).

As for what you believe people would need, the simple fact is that most people who aren’t super zealous Catholics and aren’t seeking an annulment aren’t even going to be aware of this issue, the Church isn’t going to go looking up every Catholic in a mixed marriage to see if the non-Catholic spouse had a baptism issue, and even if the Church did that, many if not most people don’t have any proof of what happened at their specific baptism. If some couple had some proof and were really worried about it then maybe their priest would try to do something to help them. But a lot of couples are just going to continue presuming their marriages are valid and the Church is likely to just let them presume.
 
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Marriage between half-siblings are possible in many jurisdictions, and the possibility of birth defects does not affect the validity or legality of a marriage in the Church’s eyes.
 
You’re really getting into the weeds here, so I think I’ll bow out. If your own marriage or that of your loved one isn’t affected by this, I see no reason to dwell on what’s basically other people’s business, or make up increasingly bizarre hypotheticals and go through tortured legal analyses of what the Church might do. Have a nice day.
 
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How is it a bizarre hypothetical? Many catholics are married to protestants that apparently uses ”we baptize” formula. Those people are now not in a sacramental marriage and perhaps even have to have convalidation since disparity of cult is an impediment!
 
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tuffsmurf said:
Marriage between half-siblings are possible in many jurisdictions, and the possibility of birth defects does not affect the validity or legality of a marriage in the Church’s eyes.
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Marriage between half-sibling are definitely NOT permitted by the Catholic Church. Such a marriage would not be recognised as valid by the Church.
 
It is possible to get a papal dispensation which has happened. But take cousins instead, then, since that is indeed dispensable and legal in most countries. The couple are cousins and don’t know since they have broken contact with their parents for some reason. Some years after the marriage they get to know about their parents being sibling. Do they need a convalidation because their marriage had an impediment?
 
tuffsmurf said:
It is possible to get a papal dispensation which has happened.
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I do not believe the Church would declare a marriage between siblings (full or half) as valid.

Can. 1091 §1 Marriage is invalid between those related by consanguinity in all degrees of the direct line, whether ascending or descending, legitimate or natural.

§2 In the collateral line, it is invalid up to the fourth degree inclusive.

§3 The impediment of consanguinity is not multiplied.

§4 A marriage is never to be permitted if a doubt exists as to whether the parties are related by consanguinity in any degree of the direct line, or in the second degree of the collateral line.

Can. 1092 Affinity in any degree of the direct line invalidates marriage.
 
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tuffsmurf said:
Many catholics are married to protestants that apparently uses ”we baptize” formula. Those people are now not in a sacramental marriage and perhaps even have to have convalidation since disparity of cult is an impediment!
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For a start they would need to know that this was the formula used at the non-Catholic party’s baptism - an unlikely prospect given we’re talking about something which probably happened decades earlier.

Granted, although unlikely, it’s entirely possible that, much like the unfortunate priest in Detroit, some may inadvertently stumble upon a problem. Whether that problem necessarily needs a solution is another matter. They are still naturally (and civilly) married and many if not most would treat it as a non issue and simply go on with their lives. For the few that are really concerned, the solution would be a radical sanation rather than a convalidation because: it’s done entirely on paper; and because it’s effective from the date of the marriage.
 
tuffsmurf said:
Catholics who wish to marry a protestant who not has an invalid/doubtful baptism can not have a sacramental marriage and need dispensation from the bishop.
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If they had an invalid baptism they would not be Catholic and therefore wouldn’t need a dispensation.
 
If one party is catholic and the other is invalidly baptized they do need dispensation.
 
I can see that radical sanation would be more suitable in these situations. The thing is, they wouldn’t be in a natural marriage if they hadn’t got a dispensation from the bishop, which they didn’t because they believed the baptism was valid. Also, they wouldn’t have to know for sure that it was invalid; to suspect it is enough to warrant an investigation.

I think it was very, very unwise to drop a bombshell like this without giving any advice to those who now might suspect their baptism to be invalid. Unless of course this ruling only applies to catholic baptisms and protestant baptism using the we-formula still is valid, which I have seen some people claim.
 
I thought you were saying the Catholic had an invalid baptism. Sure, in that case, yes, they would need Bishop’s approval. However, I believe Canon 144 would take care of it and require neither convallidation or sanation.
 
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MNathaniel said:
the list of approved baptisms will change
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I think way too much weight has been given to this list (or these lists). I probably should look into where it/they came from. Probably some canon lawyer(s) somewhere…

Dan
 
acanonlawyer said:
I think way too much weight has been given to this list (or these lists). I probably should look into where it/they came from. Probably some canon lawyer(s) somewhere…
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I have looked at several of these online as I am a convert. These lists appear to have sprung up in one diocese and then other diocese have taken it, copied it, used it for their own. There is no master list I aware of, from the Vatican, listing valid and invalid Protestant baptisms.
In fact, I found the church I was baptized in listed as invalid in a Canadian Bishop’s document but in the U.S. my church wasn’t listed at all, in any of them. Furthermore, a church with a similar name, was listed as valid. Talk about confusing.
 
tuffsmurf said:
How many marriages are now considered invalid because of that fact alone?
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I will reiterate what was said by @Tis_Bearself : every marriage that was presumed valid (by the law) prior to this declaration is still presumed valid (by the law) today.

At the same time, if a Party to the marriage (or both Parties) become aware of an impediment (dispartiy of cult or otherwise), then they should seek convalidation. This could either be a simple convalidation or a so-called radical sanation. Either way, the impediment would have to be dispensed.

Dan
 
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