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gmarie21
Guest
So, should she cut off all ties to anyone in a pretend marriage? How about anyone else living in a state of grave sin? How can she show Christ’s love when she is turning away from the sinner?
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gmarie21
Guest
well, many tribunals have ruled that some marriages that are done as prescribed by the Catholic Church where both parties are baptized were not sacramental and valid marriages b/c of one or both parties having had something missing when making their vows causing the marriage to be invalid and a non-sacrament. There are some who are married in a Catholic ceremony who are just going through the motions to appease their families, or who have married because they have a child together or many other reasons. They were married according to the guidelines you stated, yet, (as in my family) we knew that they weren’t really entering the marriage as prescribed by the Catholic Church. So, knowing that, does that mean that it was wrong as a practicing Catholic to have attended their Catholic Matrimonial Ceremony?
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mikew262
Guest
Good point!
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mikew262
Guest
While it may not be valid to the Church, it is according to civil law. Pretty non-christian like to turn your back on your friends who have invited you to share in their day of happiness.
Pray for them if you must, but don’t condemn them by your actions.
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bear06
Guest
Did anyone say that? Please read my first post in this thread. I live this situation everyday and I’ve never gone wrong by supporting God’s laws. I’m now, at this point, the only one my friend turns to. You needn’t cut ties with the person but one shouldn’t attend a mock wedding.
I don’t know if you have children but let’s use this example. If you kids wanted to do drugs, would you say yes for the sake of your relationship with them? Of course not because it would hurt them. Does this mean you cut them out of your life? Probably not unless this would hurt your other children. You’d tell them why you don’t support that act and let them know you love them.
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CathyM
Guest
PRIVATE DECISION versus PUBLIC WITNESS
As Catholics, we believe that when we worship and submit to the authority and teachings of the Catholic Church, we are in communion with our Lord Jesus Christ.
The decision to remain in communion with the Catholic Church is a private one,
HOWEVER, when a Catholic decides to marry without the approval of the Church, he/she is effect publicly denying the Catholic faith, the Sacrament of Marriage, the Authority of the Church, and has taken him/herself out of communion with the Mystical Body of Christ.
A matter of conscience arises for those practicing Catholics who are invited to celebrate and bear witness to the occasion.
As Catholics, we believe that when we worship and submit to the authority and teachings of the Catholic Church, we are in communion with our Lord Jesus Christ.
The decision to remain in communion with the Catholic Church is a private one,
HOWEVER, when a Catholic decides to marry without the approval of the Church, he/she is effect publicly denying the Catholic faith, the Sacrament of Marriage, the Authority of the Church, and has taken him/herself out of communion with the Mystical Body of Christ.
A matter of conscience arises for those practicing Catholics who are invited to celebrate and bear witness to the occasion.
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Denise_Shae
Guest
In fact, it is (according to Fr. Levis from EWTN’s “Web Of Faith”) a sin to encourage, attend, celebrate and/or participate in an invalid wedding. (Invalid according to the precepts of the Catholic Church)
One isn’t even permitted to give a gift, because that is considered congratulating and encouraging the couple to live in a state of Mortal Sin.
If I am forced into a situation where someone is going to be offended by my actions (or lack of actions), the offence will not be directed toward Christ. My family and/or friends will just have to get over it.
I will not knowingly participate in a sinful situation due to misguided compassion.
My first loyalty is to God. If people are offended by that, then the problem is theirs. But I will not compromise my Faith (and possible salvation) for anyone.
God Bless,
Denise
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CathyM
Guest
HOLY MATRIMONY
HOLY EUCHARIST
Suppose you and a Catholic friend are invited to attend a Protestant worship service and “table fellowship” will be held after song and sermon.
Your Catholic friend tells you in advance that he/she is going to participate in Protestant communion (after all it’s just a matter of conscience) and encourages you to partake as well in order to not offend the Protestant congregation or appear judgmental.
Your body (exterior) will be witnessing in direct conflict with your spiritual disposition (interior).
What would you do?
1)acccept and participate
2)accept only ½ the invitation & silently watch your Catholic friend partake
3)accept only ½ the invitation & counsel your Catholic friend to not partake as well
4) decline the invitation yourself & still counsel your Catholic friend to not partake
5) decline the invitation yourself and offer no reason
There are some parallels of conscience between a Catholic giving witness to the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist and to giving witness to Holy Matrimony.
HOLY EUCHARIST
Suppose you and a Catholic friend are invited to attend a Protestant worship service and “table fellowship” will be held after song and sermon.
Your Catholic friend tells you in advance that he/she is going to participate in Protestant communion (after all it’s just a matter of conscience) and encourages you to partake as well in order to not offend the Protestant congregation or appear judgmental.
Your body (exterior) will be witnessing in direct conflict with your spiritual disposition (interior).
What would you do?
1)acccept and participate
2)accept only ½ the invitation & silently watch your Catholic friend partake
3)accept only ½ the invitation & counsel your Catholic friend to not partake as well
4) decline the invitation yourself & still counsel your Catholic friend to not partake
5) decline the invitation yourself and offer no reason
There are some parallels of conscience between a Catholic giving witness to the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist and to giving witness to Holy Matrimony.
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gmarie21
Guest
What about attending a baptism where you know that the parents will not be educating their child in the Catholic Faith? Then, one must not attend a baptism with these circumstances? I don’t know, but by many people’s logic here, you would not attend the baptism of the child.
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jmcrae
Guest
The answer is NO, you can’t go.
If the person is someone close to you, you will want to explain your reasons.
Try to do this enough in advance of the wedding date that if the couple had no idea that this was wrong, they have time to meet with a priest and sort things out so that they can do things the right way.
If they already know that they are disobeying the Church, then they won’t be able to say, “But I don’t understand why you can’t support me in this,” and if they do say this, then open your Bible to John 14:15, and ask them, “If I say that I love Jesus, but I don’t obey His commands, am I telling the truth?”
Don’t focus on their disobedience (they already know, and don’t care); rather, focus on that they are asking you to be disobedient, and tell them, “In good conscience, I cannot disobey Jesus.”
If it’s a casual acquaintance, wish them luck and explain that you have a previous engagement. (You do. You’re going to go to Adoration that day, to pray for their souls. Right?
)
If the person is someone close to you, you will want to explain your reasons.
Try to do this enough in advance of the wedding date that if the couple had no idea that this was wrong, they have time to meet with a priest and sort things out so that they can do things the right way.
If they already know that they are disobeying the Church, then they won’t be able to say, “But I don’t understand why you can’t support me in this,” and if they do say this, then open your Bible to John 14:15, and ask them, “If I say that I love Jesus, but I don’t obey His commands, am I telling the truth?”
Don’t focus on their disobedience (they already know, and don’t care); rather, focus on that they are asking you to be disobedient, and tell them, “In good conscience, I cannot disobey Jesus.”
If it’s a casual acquaintance, wish them luck and explain that you have a previous engagement. (You do. You’re going to go to Adoration that day, to pray for their souls. Right?
)
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Denise_Shae
Guest
While I’d never tell a Catholic not to attend a Protestant service (as long as it does not interfere with his or her Sunday obligation to attend Holy Mass), I would definitely explain the Church’s teaching prohibiting Catholics from partaking in Protestant communion.
However, if it were a Protestant wedding, and I was very good friends with the bride or groom, or both; I’d attend the wedding ceremony. I just wouldn’t partake in the “table fellowship”. I simply do not believe in it, and I would not feel the need to explain myself to anyone.
But, again, I would inform my Catholic friend of the Church’s teaching about Protestant communion.
In fact, I’d give my Catholic friend John Martignoni’s CD on “Marriage and the Eucharist” several days before the event.
God Bless.
In His Most Sacred
,Denise
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Denise_Shae
Guest
Just to clarify: I based my answer on the premise that it was a valid Protestant wedding ceremony – Both the bride and groom being Protestant.
If that was the question, then I stand by my answer.
In His Most Sacred
,Denise
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Denise_Shae
Guest
The answer is NO, you can’t go.
If the person is someone close to you, you will want to explain your reasons.
Try to do this enough in advance of the wedding date that if the couple had no idea that this was wrong, they have time to meet with a priest and sort things out so that they can do things the right way.
If they already know that they are disobeying the Church, then they won’t be able to say, “But I don’t understand why you can’t support me in this,” and if they do say this, then open your Bible to John 14:15, and ask them, “If I say that I love Jesus, but I don’t obey His commands, am I telling the truth?”
Don’t focus on their disobedience (they already know, and don’t care); rather, focus on that they are asking you to be disobedient, and tell them, “In good conscience, I cannot disobey Jesus.”
If it’s a casual acquaintance, wish them luck and explain that you have a previous engagement. (You do. You’re going to go to Adoration that day, to pray for their souls. Right?
Thanks for that excellent suggestion!
In His Most Sacred
,Denise
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mikew262
Guest
I don’t see alot of love for your fellow man in some of these responses. What I do see, is this attitude: “If you don’t get married in the way I approve of, the heck with you, I’m not coming”.
You really think this is how God wants you to think? Friends and relatives are showing their love for you by inviting you to share in their joy, and you think thumbing your nose at them is the right way to handle it? Love one another… Remember that one?
Sad. :tsktsk:
You really think this is how God wants you to think? Friends and relatives are showing their love for you by inviting you to share in their joy, and you think thumbing your nose at them is the right way to handle it? Love one another… Remember that one?
Sad. :tsktsk:
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jmcrae
Guest
If someone invited you to witness their suicide, would you “share in their joy” and attend it as though nothing were the matter?
That’s what we as Catholics are seeing our fellow Catholics doing, when they disobey the Church.
We aren’t talking here about people who wouldn’t know any better - in fact, a Protestant or pagan wedding is considered valid in the Catholic Church - and sometimes even Sacramental - as long as the two are actually pagans or Protestants.
It’s when a Catholic gets married in a pagan manner or a Protestant manner without the permission of the Bishop that there is a problem.
They thumbed us, first. They said, “We don’t care what God thinks: we are so much smarter than God, so we’ve decided that He’s not invited to our wedding.” By their actions, if not in words.
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Denise_Shae
Guest
Excuse me; this isn’t a matter of:
This isn’t a matter of personal opinion. It’s a matter of Catholics being allowed to practice their Faith. Don’t confuse the issue. We are not judging the couple, but we are not in a position to condone and encourage sinful actions. There’s a big difference between the two.
If a couple chooses to engage in an invalid marriage, that’s their decision, but don’t expect me to commit a Grievous sin and endanger my immortal soul by participating in or encouraging their Mortal sin. I don’t think that’s fair.
Respect is a two-way street. If people want practicing Catholics to respect their choices, they must also respect our right to follow our Faith and the Magisterium of the Holy Catholic Church.
Nobody is worth endangering my soul. If that sounds arrogant, so be it. On Judgment Day, my critics won’t be there to defend me as I stand before the Throne of God. I’ll be there, alone, to account for my actions or lack thereof.
In His Most Sacred
,Denise
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gmarie21
Guest
Many confessors have explained that with any situation one must evaluate which decisions will cause the greatest and the least number of serious sins. One should obviously decide to take action based on that which will cause the least amount of sins. So, while for some families not attending a wedding may cause the least amount of sins, for others the same decision may cause the most amount of sins.
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OutinChgoburbs
Guest
I don’t understand. If you’ve already made your decision, then why is it up to the posters to publicly declare their intentions? Is this some kind of test of CAF, and those with the right answers will get to keep posting? Sounds to me like you just want to get people riled up.
If you pull a seach using the “search” feature, you will find this topic has been threaded to death.
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=109947&highlight=invalid+marriage
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=110419&highlight=invalid+marriage
Here’s two without even a good search. Hope this helps you.
If you pull a seach using the “search” feature, you will find this topic has been threaded to death.
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=109947&highlight=invalid+marriage
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=110419&highlight=invalid+marriage
Here’s two without even a good search. Hope this helps you.
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CathyM
Guest
*If you’ve already made your decision, then why is it up to the posters to publicly declare their intentions? Is this some kind of test of CAF, and those with the right answers will get to keep posting? Sounds to me like you just want to get people riled up. *
With all due respect, if the discussion at hand riles you up – please do not feel obligated to participate. This is not a CAF test … this is an attempt to discuss and address matters of conscience which affect our “Catholic family.”
The fact that we are reading such a diverse disunity of opinions on the matters of witnessing to both the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist and the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony says a lot in itself.
There are times when our emotions conflict with our conscience and cause great unease, discomfort and even anger and requires us to reflect more deeply, pray and humble ourselves to reconcile with the Truth.
Dignitatis Humanae teaches us that “in forming their consciences the faithful must pay careful attention to the holy and certain teaching of the Church”.
There is a timely article in This Rock October 2006, I highly recommend reading it.
A Conscientious Objection
by Karlo Broussard
Is a Catholic’s conscience autonomous and free from the moral obligation to conform to the authority of the magisterium of the Church ? ( no )
Are we as Catholics morally obliged to conform our conscience to the teachings of the Catholic Church ? ( Vatican II says yes.)
With all due respect, if the discussion at hand riles you up – please do not feel obligated to participate. This is not a CAF test … this is an attempt to discuss and address matters of conscience which affect our “Catholic family.”
The fact that we are reading such a diverse disunity of opinions on the matters of witnessing to both the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist and the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony says a lot in itself.
There are times when our emotions conflict with our conscience and cause great unease, discomfort and even anger and requires us to reflect more deeply, pray and humble ourselves to reconcile with the Truth.
Dignitatis Humanae teaches us that “in forming their consciences the faithful must pay careful attention to the holy and certain teaching of the Church”.
There is a timely article in This Rock October 2006, I highly recommend reading it.
A Conscientious Objection
by Karlo Broussard
Is a Catholic’s conscience autonomous and free from the moral obligation to conform to the authority of the magisterium of the Church ? ( no )
Are we as Catholics morally obliged to conform our conscience to the teachings of the Catholic Church ? ( Vatican II says yes.)
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bear06
Guest
Again, you put words into our mouths that aren’t there. It doesn’t matter what we approve. It matters what God through His church approves. It’s us not wanting to support our friends’ killing of their souls (which is what mortal sin does). If your friend is holding a gun to their head, go ahead and tell them to fire at will. I don’t do that to my friends. I don’t take the comfortable easy way out.
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