Invalid Sacrament?

[Cohibas]

My Pastor is not fond of wine. Consequently, he purposefully, but incorrectly, mixes a VERY SMALL amount of wine with a very large amount of water in the chalice. I witness this at daily Mass and I consume his “concoction” (his word, not mine) when I serve as an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. When he concelebrates, he does it correctly, but has the other priest(s) consume the Precious Blood. Accordingly, I do not believe that other priests know what he does on a regular basis.
Are all of his Masses invalid when he prepares his “concotion”?

 

[_veritas]

Cohibas:

My Pastor is not fond of wine. Consequently, he purposefully, but incorrectly, mixes a VERY SMALL amount of wine with a very large amount of water in the chalice. I witness this at daily Mass and I consume his “concoction” (his word, not mine) when I serve as an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. When he concelebrates, he does it correctly, but has the other priest(s) consume the Precious Blood. Accordingly, I do not believe that other priests know what he does on a regular basis.
Are all of his Masses invalid when he prepares his “concotion”?

I do not have a citation for you, but this raises grave concerns to me… It seems to me that he is basically doing the same as purifying the chalice!

After Mass, to purify the sacred vessels, water is used to dilute the consecrated species. When the amount of water exceeds the amount of wine (or breaks down the host particles), the Church teaches that the Body and Blood no longer remain. The purified water is then poured down a special sink in the sacristy that drains directly into the ground, and the sacred vessels are then wiped clean and are ready to be used again.

This priest is basically “purifying” the vessels before the Consecration even begins!!

Hopefully somebody else has necessary citations to back this up for you to use…

+veritas+

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Cohibas:

My Pastor is not fond of wine. Consequently, he purposefully, but incorrectly, mixes a VERY SMALL amount of wine with a very large amount of water in the chalice. I witness this at daily Mass and I consume his “concoction” (his word, not mine) when I serve as an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. When he concelebrates, he does it correctly, but has the other priest(s) consume the Precious Blood. Accordingly, I do not believe that other priests know what he does on a regular basis.
Are all of his Masses invalid when he prepares his “concotion”?

Yes

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I do not have a citation for you, but this raises grave concerns to me… It seems to me that he is basically doing the same as purifying the chalice!

After Mass, to purify the sacred vessels, water is used to dilute the consecrated species. When the amount of water exceeds the amount of wine (or breaks down the host particles), the Church teaches that the Body and Blood no longer remain. The purified water is then poured down a special sink in the sacristy that drains directly into the ground, and the sacred vessels are then wiped clean and are ready to be used again.

This priest is basically “purifying” the vessels before the Consecration even begins!!

Hopefully somebody else has necessary citations to back this up for you to use…

+veritas+

“The purified water is then poured down a special sink in the sacristy that drains directly into the ground, and the sacred vessels are then wiped clean and are ready to be used again.”

The remaining Blood of Christ is to be consumed. A moderate amount of water is then added to the chalice and the contents is to be consumed, not poured down the sacrarium. The second or third rinse can be poured down the sacrarium.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I agree with Br. Rich. The validity is at least questionable. Know that the body, blood, soul, and divinity are truly present in the consecrated bread (presuming the matter, form, and intent are correct).

I recommend you approach the priest with your concerns. If he disregards your concerns, I suggest following this protocol :

cuf.org/protocol.htm

 

[itsjustdave1988]

The purified water is then poured down a special sink in the sacristy that drains directly into the ground, and the sacred vessels are then wiped clean and are ready to be used again.

Eeeek! This is a liturgical abuse according to the pope.

Redemptionis Sacramentum

[107.] In accordance with what is laid down by the canons, “one who throws away the consecrated species or takes them away or keeps them for a sacrilegious purpose, incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See; a cleric, moreover, may be punished by another penalty, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state”.[194] To be regarded as pertaining to this case is any action that is voluntarily and gravely disrespectful of the sacred species. Anyone, therefore, who acts contrary to these norms, for example casting the sacred species into the sacrarium or in an unworthy place or on the ground, incurs the penalties laid down.[195] Furthermore all will remember that once the distribution of Holy Communion during the celebration of Mass has been completed, the prescriptions of the Roman Missal are to be observed, and in particular, whatever may remain of the Blood of Christ must be entirely and immediately consumed by the Priest or by another minister, according to the norms, while the consecrated hosts that are left are to be consumed by the Priest at the altar or carried to the place for the reservation of the Eucharist.[196]

 

[_veritas]

itsjustdave1988:

Eeeek! This is a liturgical abuse according to the pope.

Redemptionis Sacramentum

Yes yes, I know that… apologies! Bad phrasing of words on my part… I was assuming that I was explaining the situation AFTER Mass, AFTER the remaining Blood has been drunk, which is the rule I believe, that the priest or approved person is to drink the remaining Blood as quickly as possible after Communion, while the purification may either happen immediately following at the credence table (or side of altar), or happen back in the sacristy.

In any case, I was assuming the remaining Blood (that was able to be) was already drunk, and we were dealing with “empty” vessels that simply needed to be purified. THAT water is poured down the sacquriam (sp?).

EVEN SO – there is always a bit of Blood left in the vessels, and from what I understand, the amount of water that is needed to purify the vessels is greater than the amount of Blood remaining (even if it is just a thin coating or drips). Which is why I was saying that this person was reporting a “purifying”-type situation. I would assume that if there were larger amounts of wine, adding too much water would dilute it too much, and the confection of the sacrament would not occur.

+veritas+

 

[rayne89]

Cohibas:

My Pastor is not fond of wine. Consequently, he purposefully, but incorrectly, mixes a VERY SMALL amount of wine with a very large amount of water in the chalice. I witness this at daily Mass and I consume his “concoction” (his word, not mine) when I serve as an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. When he concelebrates, he does it correctly, but has the other priest(s) consume the Precious Blood. Accordingly, I do not believe that other priests know what he does on a regular basis.
Are all of his Masses invalid when he prepares his “concotion”?

Is it possible this priest has an alcohol problem and does not wish to consume the wine for that reason? (Not an excuse to do it incorrectly ofcourse!)

 

[rayne89]

Cohibas:

My Pastor is not fond of wine. Consequently, he purposefully, but incorrectly, mixes a VERY SMALL amount of wine with a very large amount of water in the chalice. I witness this at daily Mass and I consume his “concoction” (his word, not mine) when I serve as an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. When he concelebrates, he does it correctly, but has the other priest(s) consume the Precious Blood. Accordingly, I do not believe that other priests know what he does on a regular basis.
Are all of his Masses invalid when he prepares his “concotion”?

Is it possible that the priest has a alcohol problem and that is why he id doing this? (Not that that is an excuse to do it incorrectly!)

 

[Cohibas]

He is a close friend of mine, so I know that he does not like alcohol in addition to the fact that he has a rare liver condition that concerns him. He told me that alcohol “bothers” his liver. His MD has not barred him from alcohol, it’s just a decision he came to on his own. I’d like to counsel him that he is permitted to use “mustum” in the place of regular wine. However, before I do so I wanted to make sure that I am correct in my belief that his process makes the Mass invalid as opposed to simply not the “best” way.
I wrote to the priest who is the Director of our Diocese’s Office of Worship, but he failed to respond. Since then I’ve come to know that priest personally so the next time I see him I will discuss this issue with him.
Thanks for your help!
P.S. - When I purify I NEVER pour the water down the sacrarium. I wipe out all of the ciboriums (ciboria?) into the chalice, and then put water in each to rinse further. That is then poured into the chalice. Each ciborium is then dried. I then drink the chalice, put more water in to rinse further, drink and then dry. I figure that any particle of Our Lord’s Sacred Body and any drop of His Most Precious Blood is better going into me then down the sacrarium! However, I do recognize that for a particularly large Mass the number of ciborium and chalices used would require the last rinsing of each to be poured down the sacrarium. There’s only so much water that one can drink!!

 

[Detroit_Sue]

rayne89:

Is it possible that the priest has a alcohol problem and that is why he id doing this? (Not that that is an excuse to do it incorrectly!)

That’s what I was thinking, too. Also, did I miss something? The poster said they consume the priest’s “concoction.” As long as the wine is Consecrated, does it matter if it was a drop or a gallon? I didn’t see anything about the Precious Blood being poured down the Sacrarium?

 

[Cohibas]

The “purification” topic reminded me of a funny story if you don’t mind. A priest I know recanted a story about when he was in seminary. Apparently one Friday a month morning Mass was for the entire seminary to attend together. The priest apparently was not paying attention to the congregation and consecrated the normal amount of wine for the once a month full seminary Mass. He failed to realize that it was the Friday before a holiday and many seminarians had already left for the long weekend. Needless to say, there were five small chalices of Precious Blood remaining after Mass. The priest had to leave immediately after Mass, leaving my friend with the task of having to purify! He told me that his class notes that day were not very good!

 

[Cohibas]

Detroit Sue-That’s my whole question! By only using a drop of wine and a large amount of water, is the priest performing a valid consecration? Are we consuming the Precious Blood or simply water with a slight hint of wine? I mean, the priest is to be consecrating wine not water!

My solution if I were him would be to use only a small amount of wine with a single drop of water. That way he is still consecrating wine! He would only have to consume a very small amount of wine, likely the same diluted amount that he consumes with his method.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

… the Mass invalid as opposed to simply not the “best” way.

Let me clarify … the Mass is not invalid. The consecration of the Precious Blood may be invalid, as the matter may no longer be truly wine, but water with a hint of wine in it. It is debatable how much water makes wine no longer wine. However, the validity of JUST the Precious Blood is in question, not the consecration of the bread, or the validity of the Mass itself.

 

[_veritas]

itsjustdave1988:

Let me clarify … the Mass is not invalid. The consecration of the Precious Blood may be invalid, as the matter may no longer be truly wine, but water with a hint of wine in it. It is debatable how much water makes wine no longer wine. However, the validity of JUST the Precious Blood is in question, not the consecration of the bread, or the validity of the Mass itself.

Well, sort of… you’re correct, as far as I know, in that the validity of the Body is not affected by the validity of the Blood.

However, the *Mass itself *is considered invalid I believe. This is something that a canonist would be better able to respond to, and some would argue that it is semantics, but I believe that this is the proper understanding of validity as applied to the Mass.

You can have each consecrated species seperately valid or invalid, but the Mass itself is only to be considered a “valid Mass” if both species are validly consecrated. In the same way, if the priest does not consume both Body and Blood, even if validly consecrated, a canonist has told me that the Mass is to be considered an invalid Mass, even if the consecration did take place, because a crucial element of the proper matter (the person of the priest *in persona Christi) *was not in place.

Perhaps a canonist can correct this further…

+veritas+

 

[itsjustdave1988]

the Mass itself is only to be considered a “valid Mass” if both species are validly consecrated.

I think you’re right. Log the time and date, I’m admitting I’m wrong. (don’t tell my wife).

Cohibas, I would approach your priest with the following words from Pope Pius V’s De Defectibus,

IV - Defect of wine
11. If the wine has become mere vinegar, or is completely bad, or if it has been made from sour or unripe grapes, or if so much water has been mixed with it that the wine is adulterated, there is no Sacrament. [emphasis added]

What is “so much water?” I dunno. However, this is at least a dangerous practice that is of grave concern, and he ought to stop.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

itsjustdave1988:

Let me clarify … the Mass is not invalid. The consecration of the Precious Blood may be invalid, as the matter may no longer be truly wine, but water with a hint of wine in it. It is debatable how much water makes wine no longer wine. However, the validity of JUST the Precious Blood is in question, not the consecration of the bread, or the validity of the Mass itself.

The Mass would be invalid if both elements are not Consecrated.

The Bread would be Consecrated. However a Chalice which contains more than 30% water (70%wine) is questionable, more than 50% is flat out invalid matter.

 

[Cohibas]

Without a doubt it is way more than 50% water. I know this from sight and taste. By sight, he pours the wine like the drop of water is normally poured. Then he pours in the water in the manner in which the wine is typically poured.

By taste, I can verify that it is mainly water with only a very slight hint of the taste of wine.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Cohibas:

Without a doubt it is way more than 50% water. I know this from sight and taste. By sight, he pours the wine like the drop of water is normally poured. Then he pours in the water in the manner in which the wine is typically poured.

By taste, I can verify that it is mainly water with only a very slight hint of the taste of wine.

Therefore that Matter is invlaid for Consecration and the Mass itself is imcomplete.