Invalidity of Anglican orders

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LordHORSEY:
Hello!

Did I miss something here? When did Anglicans stop “ordaining” women?

LordHORSEY@comcast.net
Hey, I don’t know, I can’t speak with confidence on this, but maybe it was a misprint, maybe Chatter 163 meant to say “since the Anglicans started ordaining women.”

I don’t know, right… but maybe. I wondered that too myself.
 
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jbuck919:
One of my best friends is an Anglican (American Episcopalian) priest. I mean he is a best friend like a brother to me.

I desperately want to believe in the validity of Anglican orders, but the plain fact of the matter is that this entire separation goes back to one evil man working under the influence of Satan, namely Henry VIII, pehaps the most brutal and twisted ruler in western Europe since the Roman Empire. Prior to him, England had been the most Catholic country in Europe. He did to Christianity in the British Isles what Lenin, Stalin & co. did to the potential of Russia.

I look at the modern Anglican clergy and see nothing but good men (and women). Their bishops carry a crozier and sometimes were mitres. They practice an eternal rite of ordination by the laying on of hands. They almost invariably, given the condition that the Eucharist will be in the vernacular, celebrate it with greater dignity and ceremony and sense of aesthetics than Roman Catholics in much of the world. But 500 years ago a monster of a man was responsible for taking that seeming precedence away from them, for his selfish trilings brought about a break in the apostolic succession.
Actually, THAT part wasn’t Henry’s fault. He didn’t change much of anything in the body ecclesiastic per se in England (just removed it from papal authority, and confiscated Church goods and lands, repressing some monastic orders in the process). The Mass was still in Latin, there were still Bishops, etc. Apostolic succession was lost as Brendan described it in the 4th post of this thread. If the ordinal hadn’t been changed, the the Anglican Church might well find itself in the same position vis a vis the Catholic Church as the Orthodox, with valid orders and sacraments and, therefor, the character of a “particular” Church.
 
Hey, I don’t know, I can’t speak with confidence on this, but maybe it was a misprint, maybe Chatter 163 meant to say “since the Anglicans started ordaining women.”

I don’t know, right… but maybe. I wondered that too myself.
Yikes! You are both correct! I definitely meant to say “…started…”
 
Grace & Peace!

I found this interesting, from the document Saepius Officio, the response of the Archbishop of Canterbury to Leo, applying to Roman and Eastern orders the same rationale which the Pope had applied to Anglican orders:

(from section XX)

"Finally, we would have our revered broth in Christ beware lest in expressing this judgment he do injustice not only to us but to other Christians also, and among them to his own predecessors, who surely enjoyed in an equal measure with himself the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"For he seems to condemn the Orientals, in company with ourselves, on account of defective intention, who in the “orthodox Confession” issued about 1640 name only two functions of sacramental priesthood, that is to say that of absolving sins and of preaching; who in the “Longer Russian Catechism” (Moscow, 1839) teach nothing about the sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Christ, and mention among the office which pertain to Order only those of ministering the Sacraments and feeding the flock.


"But let the Romans consider now not once or twice what judgment they will pronounce upon their own Fathers, whose ordinations we have described above. For if the Pope shall by a new decree declare our Fathers of two hundred and fifty years ago wrongly ordained, there is nothing to hinder the inevitable sentence that by the same law all who have been similarly ordained have received no orders. And if our Fathers, who used in 1550 and 1552 forms which as he says are null, were altogether unable to reform them in 1662, his own Fathers come under the self-same law. And if Hippolytus and Victor and Leo and Gelasius and Gregory have some of them said too little in their rites about the priesthood and the high priesthood, and nothing about thte power of offering the sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Christ, the church of Rome herself has an invalid priesthood, and the reformers of the Sacramentaries, no matter what their names, could do nothing to remedy her rites…Thus in overthrowing our orders he overthrows all his own, and pronounces sentence on his own Church. Eugenius IVth indeed brought his Church into peril of nullity when he taught a new matter and a new form of Order and left the real without a word. For no one knows how many ordinations may have been made, according to his teaching, without any laying on of hands or appropriate form. Pope Leo demands a form unknown to previous Bishops of Rome, and intention which is defective in the catechisms of the Oriental Church.

“To conclude…we acknowledge that the things which our brother Pope Leo XIIIth has written from time to time in other letters are sometimes very true and always written with a good will. … We also gladly declare that there is much in his own person that is worthy of love and reverence. But that error, which is inveterate in the Roman communion, of substituting the visible head for the invisible Christ, will rob his good words of any fruit of peace.”

The Archbishop goes on to discuss the ordination of John Gordon in 1688, which ordination the Holy Father uses as the central case in the controversy, followed by a statement of astonishment that the Congregation of the Supreme Inquisition would approve the ordination of Abyssinian priests when the form of their ordination so clearly falls into Leo’s description of invalid form. While confessing that the document in which such approval is given was later (much much later) repudiated, he concludes, “who hereafter can believe that the holy Office is an adequate witness in such a controversy, or even on the character of its own documents?.. For these reasons we may justly say that the darkness in which the holy Office is enveloped is insufficiently dispersed by the Pope’s letter.”

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
 
On the Nullity of Anglican Orders

Apostolicae Curae

Promulgated September 18, 1896 by Pope Leo XIII
Of course, there is the issue of intention - as well as form. It is pretty clear that Anglicanism rejected the entire Catholic concept of the Mass as a sacrifice as well as the Catholic understanding of Real Presence. While disputes on form, above, may get some traction on the use of exact language, there is little doubt that the Orthodox and Orientals hold to substantially the same intent as Catholicism, and the Church Fathers - all of which the Edwardian Anglican Church rejected. See below.
  1. With this inherent defect of “form” is joined the defect of “intention” which is equally essential to the Sacrament. The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it. A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do (intendisse) what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. On the other hand, if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church and of rejecting what the Church does, and what, by the institution of Christ, belongs to the nature of the Sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the Sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to and destructive of the Sacrament.
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13curae.htm
 
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johnnykins:
On the Nullity of Anglican Orders

Apostolicae Curae

Promulgated September 18, 1896 by Pope Leo XIII
Of course, there is the issue of intention - as well as form. It is pretty clear that Anglicanism rejected the entire Catholic concept of the Mass as a sacrifice as well as the Catholic understanding of Real Presence. While disputes on form, above, may get some traction on the use of exact language, there is little doubt that the Orthodox and Orientals hold to substantially the same intent as Catholicism, and the Church Fathers - all of which the Edwardian Anglican Church rejected. See below.
  1. With this inherent defect of “form” is joined the defect of “intention” which is equally essential to the Sacrament. The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it. A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do (intendisse) what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. On the other hand, if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church and of rejecting what the Church does, and what, by the institution of Christ, belongs to the nature of the Sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the Sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to and destructive of the Sacrament.
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13curae.htm
Orthodox and Orientals

Orthodox and Orientals are one in the same as I understand it. The Orientales Ecclesiae and the Orthodox Churches are the Eastern Churches. Unless you mean that the Oriental Churches are in communion with Rome and that the Orthodox Churches are not. Although, this is not entirely true of the Oriental Churches.
 
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LordHORSEY:
Orthodox and Orientals

Orthodox and Orientals are one in the same as I understand it. The Orientales Ecclesiae and the Orthodox Churches are the Eastern Churches. Unless you mean that the Oriental Churches are in communion with Rome and that the Orthodox Churches are not. Although, this is not entirely true of the Oriental Churches.
The Orthodox refer to those churches that split from Rome in the 11th century. The Oriental Churches refers to those that did not accept Chalcedon. It is the usual terminology - but not the universal terminology. Sorry for any confusion.
 
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