Inviable & Dangerous Pregnancy Termination

  • Thread starter Thread starter FossilResin
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
F_Marturana said:
An ectopic pregnancy would never get to that point. Fallopian tubes don’t stretch, and they only accommodate the size of an ovum.

It could be a photo of a miscarried baby.
Click to expand...
You seem to have more knowledge of this sort of thing than I do — medicine is not my specialty — but I would have sworn that I saw this photo published with the caption “this was an ectopic pregnancy”. That has been 40 years ago and I may be conflating two different things.

You say that fallopian tubes don’t stretch. If that is the case, how would there ever be a living conceived entity for anything longer than 5-6 weeks of pregnancy or thereabouts? Not to be crude, but if the fallopian tube stays the same size, wouldn’t the child be crushed and killed, and (obviously) cease to grow larger? The mother would have only known she was pregnant for a week or two. In other words, by the time medical complications would become evident, wouldn’t the child already be dead? And if so, how would using methotrexate be objectionable (aside from doing damage to the body of the entity)?
 
It is estimated that 90 to 95% of ectopic pregnancies ARE already dead by the time of diagnosis. The problem is there is no way to determine if the fetus is alive or dead yet.

If it could be certain (maybe someday?) then methotrexate probably would be permitted for those that have already expired and thus save the Fallopian tube to allow further pregnancies. We just aren’t there yet.
 
Pattylt said:
It is estimated that 90 to 95% of ectopic pregnancies ARE already dead by the time of diagnosis. The problem is there is no way to determine if the fetus is alive or dead yet.

If it could be certain (maybe someday?) then methotrexate probably would be permitted for those that have already expired and thus save the Fallopian tube to allow further pregnancies. We just aren’t there yet.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the information. Once again I betray my total ignorance (or near enough so) of what happens in ectopic pregnancies, but are you saying there is no way to tell whether the child is dead or alive? No kind of testing or ultrasound? If that is the case, then it sounds like “well, 90 or 95 chances out of 100, the child is dead, but it may not be, so we have to assume it is alive, and act accordingly — and that means not using methotrexate”. Is that correct?
 
Yes, that’s correct. The fetus is too small to visibly see it on ultrasound, there is no heartbeat yet and no test that can tell if it’s alive still or has died. I think they can determine if it WAS alive or dead only after removal.

If we had an ability to determine if was definitely alive or dead when the mother presented with symptoms, then methotrexate would be not only allowed but preferred in those cases…but, alas, we can’t and from what I understand, the Catholic Church will not permit methotrexate as long as that uncertainty exists.
 
For reference, I had an ultrasound today. I’m estimated at 5 weeks. You couldn’t see the baby at all. It’s simply too small. The heartbeat isn’t visible on ultrasound until 6 weeks (and 7 weeks more reliably). As part of this ultrasound, they did check for signs of an ectopic pregnancy.

That said, I have had a friend who had an ectopic that did last long enough to detect a heartbeat. But that became an emergent situation and she did lose the tube.
 
jlc2k2 said:
For reference, I had an ultrasound today. I’m estimated at 5 weeks. You couldn’t see the baby at all. It’s simply too small. The heartbeat isn’t visible on ultrasound until 6 weeks (and 7 weeks more reliably). As part of this ultrasound, they did check for signs of an ectopic pregnancy.
Click to expand...
I hope and pray that you and baby both stay well the next few months. May God bless you both (and dad too!). 👶
 
They use sonogram to determine size of the embryo, also testing for hCG , a hormone released during pregnancy.

8 weeks is when rupture is most likely to occur.
 
F_Marturana said:
Congratulations for your new baby!
Click to expand...
I like the way you put this in the present tense.

I have long thought that we as Catholics need to recognize how something as simple as our speech, how we refer to things, betrays how we’ve been conditioned to think by the larger society.

I dislike the expression “going to have a baby”. Friends, the baby is already here, and has been from the moment of conception. There is no “going to” about it. There is no “expecting”. You are not “going to be” a mother or a father. You already are.

When I announced the existence of our first known child (she never got the chance to be born, she was miscarried — Benedictus Deus, Benedictum Nomen Sanctum eius), I did not tell my colleagues “I’m going to be a father”. I told them “I am a father”. I don’t know if this distinction even registered with them or not.

There is no “coming into the world”. The baby is already in the world. As the real estate people say, “location, location, location”.

Let’s make our speech reflect the truths that we say we believe in. Anyone?
 
Getting back to the OP I don’t know of this has been brought up but would you consider it moral to kill somebody who is terminally ill do that their organs could save more people?
 
The problem with hCg is it can only estimate how far along the baby is. There is variation from person to person. What it CAN do is show if it’s going up or down. So you need two measurements a few days apart. If the woman had the test a few days previously, then it’s useful. If not, they can not wait if a tubal is about to rupture. They will still do a post surgery level to assure it’s going down but that’s after the fact.

Side story on hCG. We had a 58 yo woman present in the ER with abdominal pain. ER docs order set panels depending on symptoms and sex so she had a pregnancy test done…it was positive. Woman stated she was post menopausal for several years so the doctored us repeat the test…these are similar to store bought ones…positive again!
Since the doctor was questioning the results we performed an hCG. It was positive at 10 units…anything over 2units is positive. My co worker…smart cookie that she is…called the doctor and asked him if the woman was on the hCG diet! Yes! The doctor never considered asking until my co worker called. The diet gives hCG injections to aid in weight loss! The woman was very happy that she wasn’t pregnant at 58 yo! The doctor later called my coworker and thanked her…he was baffled and saved her from an ultrasound. :hugs:
 
With my ectopic, the fact that the HCG levels were dropping was the sign that the pregnancy was not progressing. Went to the ER with sharp pains (worst pain of my life), they did an internal ultrasound and said everything was OK, but, see my OB/GYN the next day. OB?GYN compared the second to the first, set an appointment for the next day. I ruptured the day after my 3rd HCG test.
 
Elf01 said:
Getting back to the OP I don’t know of this has been brought up but would you consider it moral to kill somebody who is terminally ill do that their organs could save more people?
Click to expand...
definitely no!
and the Church would say no, it is a murder. Organs can harvest with the patient’s consent and if we are sure that he is already dead.

That’s why some bioethical laws on organ donations are debated, but that’s another topic.

Back to topic, what is the link with ectopic pregnancy?
 
Congratulations 🙂 I’m 14 weeks. Had my first scan just last week! You will love it when you can see the heartbeat it’s crazy to think that’s a baby in there ! Let me know how you go 🙂
 
HomeschoolDad said:
Well, then, if that is the case, then the only two options are salpingectomy (removal of the part of the tube that has the conceived entity in it = moral) or methotrexate (direct assault upon the conceived entity = immoral).
Click to expand...
There is three ways to “remoove” an ectopic pregnancy:
  • drugs
  • conservatice surgery of the tube, to at least partially save it.
  • radical surgury, that’s means remooving the entire tube.
Apart morality, the choose of the technic depend of how far the pregnancy is, what the woman accept and other medical parameters.
 
Anicette said:
Back to topic, what is the link with ectopic pregnancy?
Click to expand...
The morality becomes a lot more clear when talking about born people.

The post was on the wrong topic. There is one where the OP seems to be arguing that killing the baby directly should be acceptable and my response was meant to address that.
 
jlc2k2 said:
For reference, I had an ultrasound today. I’m estimated at 5 weeks.
Click to expand...
Oooh, congratulations!!! How exciting to get a sneak-peek at Baby so early! I hope you are feeling well & have a peaceful pregnancy & delivery in the months ahead!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top